Donk bet to isolate?

mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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iPoker - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 102.8 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, hands: 1)
Hero (BB): 112.8 BB
UTG: 9.2 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
MP: 112.2 BB (VPIP: 24.44, PFR: 15.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
CO: 60.8 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
BTN: 165.6 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 7.32, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 43)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 3:diamond: 3:spade:

UTG calls 1 BB, MP raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB, UTG raises to 9.2 BB, MP calls 5.2 BB, Hero calls 5.2 BB

Flop: (28 BB, 3 players) 5:club: 6:heart: 5:heart:
Hero bets 11 BB

Im thinking MP is a pretty decent abc player who isnt calling with air in a 3bet pot on this flop, So I wanted him to fold in order to protect my hand from him paring the overs he probably has
 
IPlay

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Raise pre to isolate and post in the HA section. AP x/fold flop
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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my bad about posting in the wrong section, didnt realize it until just now. ill flag it for a moderator to move it.

keep in mind UTG is all in pre and MP was the initial raiser, so i dont see how a raise pre would isolate anybody, and im not 4bet pre against hands like Ax (probably AJ+), KQs, is pretty close to a flip and a guaranteed call from MP

I think I would have check/folded on most other flops, but i think this flop missing MP's range entirely increases my fold equity pretty well.
 
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nkat

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nah, not a fan. mp will usually play straightforward here. Betting to protect against 6 outs into a dry side pot.. meh. if flop gets checked through could bet turn 1/2 pot for that reason.. not a fan on flop though
 
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MinhANguyen

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Fold pre... UTG is limp-shoving here a lot, and the preflop betting action isn't closed for MP, who's going to 4-bet a decent amount of times. I'd rather flat premiums here to disguise our hand and let MP spaz/isolate with the weaker part of his value range. 1010/JJ/AQo, etc.

As played, x/fold flop.
 
IPlay

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my bad about posting in the wrong section, didnt realize it until just now. ill flag it for a moderator to move it.

keep in mind UTG is all in pre and MP was the initial raiser, so i dont see how a raise pre would isolate anybody, and im not 4bet pre against hands like Ax (probably AJ+), KQs, is pretty close to a flip and a guaranteed call from MP

I think I would have check/folded on most other flops, but i think this flop missing MP's range entirely increases my fold equity pretty well.

You isolate the all in guy pre.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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You isolate the all in guy pre.

oohhh okay, i see what you mean.


Minh, I see your point about pre. your explanations always make a lot of sense.
Why do you suppose we check/fold on the flop? I think UTG is check shoving with a very very wide range with only .46 cents.. and MP is probably calling with a wide range. the only thing i have to watch out for is pocket pairs and any fives or sixes which make up such about half of his range in this spot. i think our fold equity is pretty much 50% and if he continues then we know what he has.
 
TimovieMan

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Either 3-bet preflop to isolate the shortstack, or wait for a better spot, because MP doesn't seem that fishy.

As played, you went for setmining and whiffed. Just check/fold.

Donking gives no information. If he raises, you gave him a 11bb for free, and if he flats, you'll know nothing more and risk having to bet out more on later streets.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Either 3-bet preflop to isolate the shortstack, or wait for a better spot, because MP doesn't seem that fishy.

As played, you went for setmining and whiffed. Just check/fold.

Donking gives no information. If he raises, you gave him a 11bb for free, and if he flats, you'll know nothing more and risk having to bet out more on later streets.
I think he's raising with any pocket pair and flatting with any AT+/KQ and folding with anything else. (most of the time, of curse there will be exceptions)
 
TimovieMan

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I think he's raising with any pocket pair and flatting with any AT+/KQ and folding with anything else. (most of the time, of curse there will be exceptions)
Either you have a 5 or 66 or another pocket pair or a flush draw or you're full of it. If he raises, you can play your hand perfectly. If he doesn't, YOU're the one that's going to be making the mistakes...
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Either you have a 5 or 66 or another pocket pair or a flush draw or you're full of it. If he raises, you can play your hand perfectly. If he doesn't, YOU're the one that's going to be making the mistakes...

I'm not sure I fully understand why AA would call down here. I understand the notion of allowing the other player to make mistakes, but if I have AA in position and someone donks, I'm not letting them see the next card cheap.
 
TimovieMan

TimovieMan

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I'm not sure I fully understand why AA would call down here. I understand the notion of allowing the other player to make mistakes, but if I have AA in position and someone donks, I'm not letting them see the next card cheap.
What range are YOU continuing with if he raises here?
 
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MinhANguyen

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I'm not sure I fully understand why AA would call down here. I understand the notion of allowing the other player to make mistakes, but if I have AA in position and someone donks, I'm not letting them see the next card cheap.

Huh? If I had AA in position, I am ALWAYS flatting in this spot. There are no overcards to fear, and your range is pretty face-up to a one-pair hand. Probably flatting with any mid/premium pair here. Raising is really bad with AA... Doing anything but flatting AA in position is a crime :eek:
 
Beanfacekilla

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What range are YOU continuing with if he raises here?



FD, SD, PPs 7-7+, maybe even 5x.

I do agree donk bet is terrible here. I have spent quite a bit of time bashing it in other threads. But, raising with AA isn't terrible.

I do encounter opponents who like to donk OOP frequently. They usually will call a raise. And, they almost always have some janky shit just like the OP does in this hand as well. So, from a standpoint of value, I disagree that one shouldn't raise a hand like AA here in this spot. Calling is fine too, but I just like to punish people who donk bet sometimes. However, I play live, and opponents are probably worse live.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Huh? If I had AA in position, I am ALWAYS flatting in this spot. There are no overcards to fear, and your range is pretty face-up to a one-pair hand. Probably flatting with any mid/premium pair here. Raising is really bad with AA... Doing anything but flatting AA in position is a crime :eek:



Meh. Always is a pretty strong word in regards to poker strategy... There is a time and place to raise AA in a spot like this. It is dependent on the opponent, whether pot is MW, etc. Also stack size could play a role in choosing to raise/not raise a donk on this flop.
 
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MinhANguyen

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Meh okay, haha. Flatting most of the time, especially against decent/thinking players or unknown players. Against a fish raising is fine.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Against a fish raising is fine.
Who just donked into you?

Anyways,
MP folded, and UTG had Q7offsuit, and I rivered a 3 to make a boat

I don't remember the turn card, but I do remember that whatever it was mussed UTGs hand entirely
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Just found this, definitely an interesting take on why donk betting is considered bad.
https://www.pokervip.com/strategy-articles/texas-hold-em-no-limit-beginner/donk-bet-poker-strategy

And bean, I think the key difference is donk betting primarily for information is bad. Betting at all for information as a primary reason is bad. But here, my primary reason for betting was for fold equity, and information is a secondary effect. Although I suppose check raising would be stronger if he had a high cbet stat.
 
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mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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So we are bluffing flop?

I agree with what you said about isolating pre as opposed to on the flop. I should have raised pre as opposed to betting the flop but yes, as played I'm bluffing the flop.
 
Beanfacekilla

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The results are irrelevent. Regardless of that, this is not a good play OTF.
 
IPlay

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I agree with what you said about isolating pre as opposed to on the flop. I should have raised pre as opposed to betting the flop but yes, as played I'm bluffing the flop.

What better hands are folding to your donk?

None
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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What better hands are folding to your donk?

None

I'm not bluffing to make better hands fold, I'm bluffing to prevent hands from becoming better hands. Pocket 3s are pretty close to a flip against two unpaired overcards on this board if I'm not mistaken although I'm not near my computer so I can't check that on a calculator, but three way against two hands with unpaired overcards I'm at roughly 33% equity, if narrow it to two-way, I improve to roughly 50% plus the dead money from villain (assuming utg has unpaired overs). Villain isn't folding better hands, but he's folding worse hands every time. If villain raises my donk I probably call depending on the size of his raise and look for cheap showdown or fold to continuing aggression on the turn.
 
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TimovieMan

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I'm not bluffing to make better hands fold
Odd. That's the ONLY reason to bluff.

I'm bluffing to prevent hands from becoming better hands.
Why? If you're ahead, your bet is for value!

Pocket 3s are pretty close to a flip against two unpaired overcards on this board if I'm not mistaken
Preflop, yes. Once they whiff on the flop, your odds are looking much better as they're basically drawing to a 6-outer.

If villain raises my donk I probably call depending on the size of his raise and look for cheap showdown or fold to continuing aggression on the turn.
Why? Does he not have bigger pocket pairs in his range? Or other stuff that already beats you?

This is exactly why we're saying you should just check/fold the flop. You're out-of-position without a clue on where you stand. You basically went for a setmine and whiffed. Lay down your cards.
 
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