Defending from BB; Postflop Actions and Ranges.

F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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$100NL, CO opens to $4. I call in the BB. For the sake of argument, let's say that CO's range is ~20% here, or 22+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.

Flop comes Q-8-7, twotone.

What's your default range for

a) leading?
b) check/raising?
c) check/calling?

What factors should I consider? Clearly it's interesting to note how often he folds to aggression, but with a hand like QJ, how do I weigh protection vs. inducing bluffs?

... and how do the ranges change if the flop is rainbow?
 
WVHillbilly

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I like leading here with almost hand I'd defend with (my personal BB defending range is ~18%). What I do on the turn if called or in response to a raise will depend on my hand and what I know about the villain.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I'm a bit confused. We're allowed to call a raise from BB? I thought it was only fold or 3bet... :)
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I'm leading here like never against a villain that knows how to c-bet. I'm floating or check/raising. With a hand like QJ, donking into the PFR is building a pot with a hand that doesn't want to pot build. Maybe with AQ or certainly Q8 I'm leading this flop, but TP3K, I'm not thrilled to be potbuilding.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I'm a bit confused. We're allowed to call a raise from BB? I thought it was only fold or 3bet... :)
Heh. Such a strategy will either have you folding way too often or 3-betting way too often.
 
c9h13no3

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Heh. Such a strategy will either have you folding way too often or 3-betting way too often.
He does raise a good point that calling with hands like QTos is pretty marginal. Being out of position, and having no initiative, we should really be calling a pretty small range. Suited connectors, pocket pairs 8 and lower, and maybe some of the bigger broadway hands (KJ+, AT/AJ). I might fold QJ to a button raise depending on how tight the player is.

The point is, we're just not going to hit enough flops with off suit hand like QT. We can only make a few OESD's, and even when we make top pair (which isn't likely) we'll be playing it for value when we're out-kicked. We really need to only be calling with hands that flop well and flop strongly OOP.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Against a tight button opener, I fold QJ, too. Most people aren't very tight in late positions though, and if you fold something as good as QJ against me, I'll run you over, even if I fold everytime you 3-bet.

I started out playing loosely from the BB. I then swung over to being very nitty out of position. I've now gradually opened more and more versus loose openers, and the results have been pretty good, chiefly because a lot of stealers follow this procedure (let's see if anyone recognizes their own pattern):

Raise in late position.
If called, c-bet.
If called, give up, unless monster, then bet 2nd barrel.
 
vanquish

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Uh. Is it dependent on that?

yes, because it will most likely have a significant effect on how wide CO's opening range is (CO's range can be assumed to be wider by a large enough margin at 6max as compared to fullring to change our own leading/check-raising/check-calling ranges, even without specific reads on that player). also considering the increased significance of table image/metagame in 6max, i'd say it def. depends on that.

edit: one example of the latter point is higher data density, so people will be a lot more likely to remember your flop c/r after defending BB, and make reads/plays based on that information at 6max, which is important to consider and take into account, whereas the nature of fullring allows us to get away with things like c/r for value or as a semi-bluff (with a draw or w/e) with smaller metagame consequences.
 
WVHillbilly

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Raise in late position.
If called, c-bet.
If called, give up, unless monster, then bet 2nd barrel.

^^^ This is exactly why I'm leading with almost my entire defending range. So many stealers just give up to a donk bet on the flop. In so many of these confrontations first to the pot wins.
 
F Paulsson

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Vanq: I gave CO's range in the OP.
 
F Paulsson

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Oh, and I get that metagame might affect 6-max vs. FR. But I asked for "default" ranges. Does your default range really change depending on FR and 6-max vs. a CO with a 20% range?
 
vanquish

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i don't really know how to answer in the "default" context. i don't think i have a default range. i probably just look at it on a hand-by-hand basis. (i know thats not the answer you were looking for lol)
 
Richyl2008

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$100NL, CO opens to $4. I call in the BB. For the sake of argument, let's say that CO's range is ~20% here, or 22+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo.

Flop comes Q-8-7, twotone.

What's your default range for

a) leading?- Assuming villain has a high cbet frequency I would say not too much, other than maybe some combo draws, occassionally some bluffs , and monster hands to balance.
b) check/raising?-Bluffs and Big hands
c) check/calling?-flush/straight draws, top pair hands, 99-JJ assuming we just called preflop which is debatable oop against a loose raiser. Sometimes I'll lead out on the turn with these hands, for instance I might have a straight draw or 99 and the flush card hits, so I'll occassionally bet to represent I hit the flush and vice versa. I would probably not lead the turn if a card like the ace hits, because aces are a big part of his range.
 
F Paulsson

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vanquish said:
i don't really know how to answer in the "default" context. i don't think i have a default range. i probably just look at it on a hand-by-hand basis. (i know thats not the answer you were looking for lol)
Well, that's what I do, too. And I think that's a problem because that means that my ranges probably aren't balanced at all, and I'm just guessing every time. I'd like to get an idea of what balanced ranges might look like (for the sake of argument, game theory optimal) and then I have an idea of how I should adjust based on tendencies of my opponents.

Right now, I have no idea at all. I probably fastplay draws and go passive with pairs. I bluff rarely. I usually end up going fancy with monsters.
 
vanquish

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Well, that's what I do, too. And I think that's a problem because that means that my ranges probably aren't balanced at all, and I'm just guessing every time. I'd like to get an idea of what balanced ranges might look like (for the sake of argument, game theory optimal) and then I have an idea of how I should adjust based on tendencies of my opponents.

Right now, I have no idea at all. I probably fastplay draws and go passive with pairs. I bluff rarely. I usually end up going fancy with monsters.

what games are you playing nowadays FP?

fwiw i've had some education with the more exploitive games (HU ring, 6max), and its sort of FOTM to have unbalanced ranges (sometimes even completely skewed) against unknowns/non-superstar players, and basing your plays on a "my range vs. my opponents range given ___ tendencies" principle. obviously you'll have to merge your ranges at some point but adjusting is generally not too much of a pain.


balancing ranges is not baller :cool: basically
 
c9h13no3

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In so many of these confrontations first to the pot wins.
Why do we want to just take down what's in the pot? Why not let him bet and take it away on later streets? Or if we have a hand, let him bet so we get value from our hand. If our opponent is going to be betting a wide range, why lead the flop and get him to fold his bluffs and raise with his good hands?
 
F Paulsson

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what games are you playing nowadays FP?

fwiw i've had some education with the more exploitive games (HU ring, 6max), and its sort of FOTM to have unbalanced ranges (sometimes even completely skewed) against unknowns/non-superstar players, and basing your plays on a "my range vs. my opponents range given ___ tendencies" principle. obviously you'll have to merge your ranges at some point but adjusting is generally not too much of a pain.


balancing ranges is not baller :cool: basically
Nowadays, only 6-max $100NL. Yeah, I get that GTO ranges aren't the best idea right now, I was just giving an example of a set of ranges. I'm mostly just looking for something to work with. If nothing else, I'll sit down and plot some ranges into Stove tomorrow and figure out how they work together.
 
F Paulsson

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I'm trying to construct a set of ranges that will be somewhat geared towards this villain. I'll let you know how it goes. So far, I've come up with this:

Flop : Qs8s7d

CO's steal range: 22+,A5s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

Chance of respective type of hand for villain:
Set: 3,40
Two pair:1,60
Overpair 5,40
TP 20,36
middle pair 27,63
OESD 3,50
Flush draw 5,39
gutshot 3,70
ace-high 12,42
 
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