Debate with Joose

M

mischman

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Whats our move here?
A) Check
B) Bet $2-5
C) Bet $5-8
D) All In

pokerstars Game #9334347992: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/04/09 - 13:40:06 (ET)
Table 'Eurymedon V' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: mischman ($36.20 in chips)
Seat 2: taff147 ($51.80 in chips)
Seat 3: big_jono ($27.20 in chips)
Seat 5: 176432 ($19.25 in chips)
Seat 6: joosebucklol ($81.25 in chips)
Seat 7: SlickBenny69 ($41.90 in chips)
Seat 8: Ima_Fedup ($17.50 in chips) Shortstack
Seat 9: wrangler330 ($58.45 in chips)
joosebucklol: posts small blind $0.25
SlickBenny69: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mischman [Ac As]
Ima_Fedup: raises $1 to $1.50
wrangler330: folds
mischman: raises $3 to $4.50
taff147: folds
big_jono: folds
176432: folds
joosebucklol: folds
SlickBenny69: folds
Ima_Fedup: calls $3
*** FLOP *** [5s 8d 9s]
Ima_Fedup: checks
mischman:
 
tosborn

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I bet $5 (1/2 pot).

His range should put us ahead here, no reads so can't be sure. But this play is typical of TT+, large conncectors, etc.

The check shows weakness and I doubt that he would call your all-in. I give him just enough wiggle room to justify paying you off. A smooth call would likely mean you have him dominated. A reraise would give a little concern but still should be an insta-call at this point.
 
Stick66

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With only $9.75 in the pot and he's only got $13 left, I'm not 100% sure here since it depends on your read on him. It might not be worth a push if you think he hit a set of 8's or 9's and will check-raise the flop. Someone who normally bets out first could be oddly checking here as a trap. But you also want to take away the flush draw. Hmmmm.

Well, I'm not completely sure of my answer. But I'll put it out here for debate. I'll pick:

C) knowing you could end up with D)

Here's what I mean: $8 lets him know you are strong and he could fold. If he doesn't, he will very like push for just $5 more. So since he is so short stacked, C) & D) could end up with the same result.
 
skoldpadda

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I like C. I have no problem taking the pot here or having him shove. His calling your over the top raise will not likely mean he has 55, 67, 88 or 99... not with stacks this size. Unless he's a fish.
 
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joeeagles

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I also think C, a bet in the range seems just about right. I'm quite sure he missed this flop and I agree with Tosborn his range here looks typical of TT+.
 
hott_estelle

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C) Raise the pot, no need to give him a free card here, even if he is shortstacked. Raise the pot, and if he pushes, it's an easy call.
 
A

alan1983

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Id bet about 5. Shortstacks rarely fold a potential draw he might have, so no pricing them out.

If hes hit a set, were not likely to fold to a reraise.

So basically id bet what pays me off the times he has a pocket pair or chasing his Ax.
 
blankoblanco

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Well we obviously have to bet. Checking would be bad because he raised UTG and called our re-raise so the chance of him having an overpair to the board is pretty high, i.e., the chance of stacking him right now is high. Checking could bring a scare card that will shut him down.

Bet ~$5. He's probably going to check-shove an overpair anyway, so we hardly have to worry about not getting value out of it. He's going to check-shove a flush draw with at least one overcard (he raised and called you're raise so he has at least one, if not two), too

The reason this is better than all-in is because a small amount of the time he may have an AK-AQ that couldn't call an all-in, but that could try to shove over your $5 bet hoping you have big cards and will fold. It won't happen that often, but I think the possibility makes it better than an all-in
 
t1riel

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C. $5-8 bet would tell you where your opponent stands. I don't like the straight and flush draw on the flop so if he is chasing, he would have to commit about half his chip stack to see the turn.
 
Suited Frenzy

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(D)

Your move is (D) simply because he doesn't have that much left $13.00 to be exact & he'll probably push all in if you check so you have to put him to the test 1st. There's only 3 hands that beat you on the flop & he doesn't have that much left so i think (D) all in.
 
Beavis68

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hell, I am all in preflop when he raises that much, if you just call, bet half the pot to induce a bluff.
 
blankoblanco

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Your move is (D) simply because he doesn't have that much left $13.00 to be exact & he'll probably push all in if you check so you have to put him to the test 1st. There's only 3 hands that beat you on the flop & he doesn't have that much left so i think (D) all in.

This ruins our chances to induce a bluff or semi-bluff, and even with a semi-bluff, we want him to do it because if he's not putting us on AA he's probably going to be greatly overestimating his odds

EDIT: Although I really don't think all-in is that bad of a move. It's my second favorite option probably, because he has an overpair to the board a lot of the time that he often won't be good enough to let go of despite our re-raise pre-flop.
 
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Suited Frenzy

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This ruins our chances to induce a bluff or semi-bluff, and even with a semi-bluff, we want him to do it because if he's not putting us on AA he's probably going to be greatly overestimating his odds


I agree but honestly w/ pkt AAs i would want the pot because they always seem to lose & winning w/ them is most important. Letting him get a chance to check though w/ a flush draw is the scary part so i would still go all in & get the pot, screw letting him get a chance just a chance to check. He checked already being he was 1st to act after the flop so why check or bet something small that he might call. I'd still choose (D) regardless of how many times i think it through.
 
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Chemist26

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I'd bet 2-5, no point slow playing with two spades up, highly unlikely he's holding 6 7 with the betting and raising pre-flop. If he has two spades he will call an all in bet anyway so no point risking a lot to get drawn out, then see if he calls, raises, or folds. If he raises your bet he might have a PP and hit trips or he might just have a PP higher then the board, hopefully the latter.
 
Bombjack

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If he had a full stack you'd make your normal c-bet of 70% pot. Since he only has slightly more than the pot left and you're well ahead / well behind (highly unlikely he has a flush draw), a good move might be to make a smaller than normal bet to show weakness to tempt him in, and make him think he has some fold equity if he shoves.

It's important to under-rep your hand because you can quadruple your profit on the hand by getting him all-in, compared to pushing and having him fold.
 
A

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I agree but honestly w/ pkt AAs i would want the pot because they always seem to lose & winning w/ them is most important. Letting him get a chance to check though w/ a flush draw is the scary part so i would still go all in & get the pot, screw letting him get a chance just a chance to check. He checked already being he was 1st to act after the flop so why check or bet something small that he might call. I'd still choose (D) regardless of how many times i think it through.


But thing is suited, small stacks wont fold most of the time in a raised pot when they have a draw.

I mean think about it. What kind of draw could he have?

Flush? We have the ace of spades. So itd have to be King Queen of spades.

You think hes gonna call raise preflop with KQs, flop a flush draw and overcards, then fold it? Not likely.

Straight draw?

Itd have to be jack-ten i guess (76 already hit his straight). Again, he called a 4.50 preflop with jackten (which isnt likely in 1st place), and hes pretty much hit his second dream flop, so hes not foldint that either.

So draws are 1- unlikely since we have the spades ace, and 2- not getting folded most of the time even if theyre present.

SO basically i think if he has a draw, what we bet wont matter.

It does matter however, when he doesnt have a draw, but has some kind of pair or even AK-AQ. If you bet small hell pay you off.
 
calibanboy

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bet $6.

Always CB with Overpair, regardless. Always. ( show when he folds). You will get the value later when you CB on bluffs.....

You need to either win here to avoid the bad beat stories. If he calls the get to the end of the hand as cheaply as possible.

if he goes all-in then call.
 
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GeoffreyChaucer

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My answer is a question. As others have said, if you bet 5-8 (what I would say if he had a bit more in chips) and he pushes all in, what do you do?

If you fold then maybe you should bet 2-5 and hope for a call.

If you push all in when he pushes all in, then you might as well push all in here and enjoy the gamble.


I would push all in, but I am a Nub.
 
blankoblanco

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My answer is a question. As others have said, if you bet 5-8 (what I would say if he had a bit more in chips) and he pushes all in, what do you do?

Call as quickly as possible. The whole reason for betting smaller is he should push with overpairs we're crushing and we'll coerce him into pushing a few random overcard bluffs when he thinks he can take the pot from us + maybe spade draws with overcards that we're well ahead of (because his overcards aren't really outs when we have AA).
 
bubbasbestbabe

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Having played with both the answer is... allin. This is where knowing your enemy comes to play. If it was you against another unknown player then I would say C/R. But since it is you and joose the bet is definetly allin.
 
M

mischman

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Having played with both the answer is... allin. This is where knowing your enemy comes to play. If it was you against another unknown player then I would say C/R. But since it is you and joose the bet is definetly allin.

umm, re-read the HH?
 
dj11

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Obviously this guy has 67 spades, and has already set the trap.....
I check
 
alexanderwoo1

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I'd push doubt he'd call your raise preflop on a 7-6.
 
mrsnake3695

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I'd push doubt he'd call your raise preflop on a 7-6.


You must not play much online then. I've seen donks call raises with all kinds of hands including crap like 5-8 suited. He easily could have 6-7 especially if suited. People see pros play these types of hands and think they are the nuts.

Having said that, you aren't going to fold to any bet/raise by villan so make a smallish bet which looks like a standard c-bet/steal and may induce a bluff push or push with a weaker holding. If he calls, push the turn no matter what hits.
 
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