Correct play with KK in NL 25 cash game pre

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bustme

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In full ring cash game NL 25 , What is the correct play against a Tight Passiv - passiv player (VPIP 15%) in this case :

You raise KK to 1 dollar under the gun.

The tight passiv - passiv player reraises to 3 dollar on the button.

What is correct to do? It is only You and him in the hand.
 
Jagsti

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It would be nice to know his PFR % as well, we can define his range better if we know his full stats. In any case you can play this 2 ways, call and evaluate the flop (ready to chk/raise a non ace flop) or 4 bet pf. I prefer to 4 bet usually.
 
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Bentheman87

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He's tight so he probably has a strong hand here which is an arguement for reraising pf. And he's passive, so if you try to get tricky and just call pf you may not get any more money from him (since these players rarely bluff). So I think you should reraise pf.
 
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bustme

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It would be nice to know his PFR % as well, we can define his range better if we know his full stats. In any case you can play this 2 ways, call and evaluate the flop (ready to chk/raise a non ace flop) or 4 bet pf. I prefer to 4 bet usually.

He is passiv so the PFR is low...


PFR is 3,87 %
 
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bustme

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Is calling for a set a good idea?.,.,. And folding if you not hit the set ?
 
DetroitJimmy

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Push.I don't care If he only played 1 out of a hundred hands I'm not flat calling with KK,and I sure as hell ain't gonna fold it preflop.I'm not good enough(or bad enough)to fold KK preflop vs. one opponent and neither should you.

If he flips over AA it was a cooler and move on to the next hand.Even then you still have a shot to pull the third king out of your ass and win it anyway.All other hands that it is possible he may have you are a huge favorite to win.You are ahead way to many times(even against a tight person) to not push here.

Edit:I just realized this was 25 max and not ten.How deep were your stacks?Assuming you were both around $25 I would reraise up to $10 or so then if he reraises push.If he calls,analize the flop and go from there.
 
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feitr

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If he is that tight, in NL25 you can probably be pretty sure you're up against aces. From what i've seen, tight players at that level normally reraise 3x with the hand range KK/AA only. You could try to min reraise his reraise...if he goes all in or reraises you 3 times again you can pretty much be 100% he has AA (outside chance of KK...i've had AA vs AA before tho so it is possible).

Unless both your stacks are very large, in which i say call and hope, i would probably just push. Today i was AA vs KK, and as soon as the guy reraised my reraise all in i typed "aa vs kk hf" and called so it really isn't that hard to tell what cards tighter players have. HOWEVER, yesterday i was also AA vs KK, i typed the exact same thing, because it was that obvious, and i got rivered. So even in the worst case scenario you're still going to suck out 20% of the time.

I think i would raise it to 5$, and see what he does. If you reraise his reraise, unless he has aces that is what he will be thinking you have. So with KK or anything else he will hopefully just call (or push all in lol pretty hard to tell). It's a hard hand to get away from, because presuming you are right, you still have decent odds to suck out. If he is tight, i personally would only feel the hand he will raise it up to 10$ or all in with would be aces.

Another question is: what is your PFR%? If you raise alot he might reraise you with somewhat less than AA.
 
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arkadiy

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Raise to $7.50, see what he does. If he raises all-in call and hope he has QQ (anything except AA). If he calls, and you get a good flop, once again try to get him all-in and hope he can't beat KK.
 
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bustme

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If he is that tight, in NL25 you can probably be pretty sure you're up against aces. From what i've seen, tight players at that level normally reraise 3x with the hand range KK/AA only. You could try to min reraise his reraise...if he goes all in or reraises you 3 times again you can pretty much be 100% he has AA (outside chance of KK...i've had AA vs AA before tho so it is possible).

Unless both your stacks are very large, in which i say call and hope, i would probably just push. Today i was AA vs KK, and as soon as the guy reraised my reraise all in i typed "aa vs kk hf" and called so it really isn't that hard to tell what cards tighter players have. HOWEVER, yesterday i was also AA vs KK, i typed the exact same thing, because it was that obvious, and i got rivered. So even in the worst case scenario you're still going to suck out 20% of the time.

I think i would raise it to 5$, and see what he does. If you reraise his reraise, unless he has aces that is what he will be thinking you have. So with KK or anything else he will hopefully just call (or push all in lol pretty hard to tell). It's a hard hand to get away from, because presuming you are right, you still have decent odds to suck out. If he is tight, i personally would only feel the hand he will raise it up to 10$ or all in with would be aces.

Another question is: what is your PFR%? If you raise alot he might reraise you with somewhat less than AA.


We had both 25 dollar and

My PFR% is 5,42% and VPIP 17%
 
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feitr

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Ok. Yea i would reraise him again, probably only to 5 or 6$, then if he flat calls i would push all in after the flop, but if he reraises you all in or reraises it right up to 15$ or something you have to make a decision on how important that 25$ is to you...because i think vs a player that tight 90% of the time at least you will be KK vs AA. Tight players tend to reraise with KK/AA only. I reraise tight guys with QQ or something to try to figure out whether or not they have an overpair or are sitting on AK/AQ, and if they have KK they will even flat call at times (which TOTALLY messes you up if the flop comes undercards and you are QQ vs KK, when you are putting them on AK) because they are that scared of AA (i presume). So reraise, and see what he does. If he moved all in I personally would lay the hand down, because a tight player won't be making that move with QQ or AK. However, I'm not sure that laying down KK preflop is ever a good idea, because as i said before in the worst case scenario you will still suck out on occasion. It all depends on how much your stack means to you. If i had a 10$ stack, i would move all in without a moments hesitation, even if i was almost positive he had AA...with say 40$ at stake, it is a far different story and i would almost certainly fold to a tight player reraising my stack size all in. You need to protect your stack when it is deep, and getting stacked KK vs AA isn't exactly doing that.

Another option is this: presume he has AA, flat call his bet, and hope like hell you get a K. The pot odds are bad, but the implied odds are amazing because you will probably double up. However, flat calling with KK preflop is, in general, a very bad thing to do. At least if you reraise, you should know where you are at.
 
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bustme

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Ok. Yea i would reraise him again, probably only to 5 or 6$, then if he flat calls i would push all in after the flop, but if he reraises you all in or reraises it right up to 15$ or something you have to make a decision on how important that 25$ is to you...because i think vs a player that tight 90% of the time at least you will be KK vs AA. Tight players tend to reraise with KK/AA only. I reraise tight guys with QQ or something to try to figure out whether or not they have an overpair or are sitting on AK/AQ, and if they have KK they will even flat call at times (which TOTALLY messes you up if the flop comes undercards and you are QQ vs KK, when you are putting them on AK) because they are that scared of AA (i presume). So reraise, and see what he does. If he moved all in I personally would lay the hand down, because a tight player won't be making that move with QQ or AK. However, I'm not sure that laying down KK preflop is ever a good idea, because as i said before in the worst case scenario you will still suck out on occasion. It all depends on how much your stack means to you. If i had a 10$ stack, i would move all in without a moments hesitation, even if i was almost positive he had AA...with say 40$ at stake, it is a far different story and i would almost certainly fold to a tight player reraising my stack size all in. You need to protect your stack when it is deep, and getting stacked KK vs AA isn't exactly doing that.

Another option is this: presume he has AA, flat call his bet, and hope like hell you get a K. The pot odds are bad, but the implied odds are amazing because you will probably double up. However, flat calling with KK preflop is, in general, a very bad thing to do. At least if you reraise, you should know where you are at.


Thanks for the reply, I have been thinking about it a little and I think the best option is to call, and fold if you dont hit a King on the flop.
 
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chardukian

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Definitely a 4 bet. Max value will be a 4 bet. I really don't see playing this any other way as he is basically a passive fish.
 
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