Check against Maniac

Im playing at a really loose 2nl cash table against a maniac and think I made a wrong move. Heres the hand.

Party Poker - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem (9 players)
Party Poker Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $0.73
BB Hero: $2.75
UTG: $2
UTG+1: $1.85 (sitting out)
MP: $2.99
MP+1: $2.05
MP+2: $1.95
CO: $2
BTN: $2

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB and dealt
3 folds, MP+2 calls $0.02, CO folds, BTN calls $0.02, SB folds, Hero raises to $0.06, MP+2 raises to $0.10, BTN calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.31) (4 players)
Hero checks, MP+2 bets $0.22, BTN folds

Reads on villain is very loose (about 68 VP$IP) and would limp or raise nearly every hand. Showdown hands have ranged in strength from AQs to Q7o. I raised to try to gain more info on his hand strength and thin the crowd since given his looseness, I felt ATs would be good against him. Villain reraised 1 BB so I called and flop came blank for me. Villain bets pot which Ive seen him do numerous times even without the goods but since I had nothing, I folded. How was this play? Should I have checked and seen a free flop?

Not sure how I feel about raising pre, I can see where you're coming from but it's probably bad.

If you're calling a limp rr with ATs here it should be because you think you are ahead a lot and doing pretty good against his range. If you want to play a big pot with ATs OOP then don't play fit or fold vs. a "maniac."

Don't fold this flop! 21 turn cards give us a backdoor flush draw, backdoor straight draw or top pair.

ClubArrow77 said:

Im playing at a really loose 2nl cash table against a maniac and think I made a wrong move. Heres the hand.


Reads on villain is very loose (about 68 VP$IP) and would limp or raise nearly every hand. Showdown hands have ranged in strength from AQs to Q7o. I raised to try to gain more info on his hand strength and thin the crowd since given his looseness, I felt ATs would be good against him. Villain reraised 1 BB so I called and flop came blank for me. Villain bets pot which Ive seen him do numerous times even without the goods but since I had nothing, I folded. How was this play? Should I have checked and seen a free flop?

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When UTG limps and then raises he either has a monster or is bluffing with nothing. In my experience they usually have it UTG limp raise but I am not that good.

If you think villain has nothing why not 4 Bet him pre? I think you would be better off 4 betting Pre with this hand than calling and waiting to see what comes out OOP. If you 4-Bet and he calls or raises you have a better idea that you are behind and can see if you check or check/fold.


f you call pre-flop you have to have something to play with besides A high. You do have back door draws but IMHO not enough equity to go for them.


The highlighted portions of your own statement show why you should fold. If you had some type of solid draw, or hand I would say you can follow Alice down the rabbit hole a little but with A high just fold and find another spot to get this guy.

Well if that was me with A10, I would more than likely fold as well. If I had the money in the bank I'd push him all in just to test him. It gives you a little more information about him if he folds or calls.

I would make a much bigger raise preflop. My standard here would be about 16c. If he is one of those pure maniac types, raising every other hand, I might just put in a huge 4bet and get it in on any flop or pre if he wants.

Just calling his min 3bet is fine as well. You gotta fold the flop when you miss now though.

The flop changed nothing like 50% of the time or more. I'd check-raise before folding.

Not a fan of a 10 oop against anyone let alone a maniac i would just fold it there or at the most get in as cheap as possible and see if your cards hit...dont like the raise there at all oop. Nor the cards.

Don't think of cards in terms of static values. This hand illustrates what reads are for and why villain's play is pretty close to correct.

BlackRain79 said:

I would make a much bigger raise preflop. My standard here would be about 16c. If he is one of those pure maniac types, raising every other hand, I might just put in a huge 4bet and get it in on any flop or pre if he wants.

Just calling his min 3bet is fine as well. You gotta fold the flop when you miss now though.

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This. Idk about folding the flop though

sCATpoker said:

Not a fan of a 10 oop against anyone let alone a maniac i would just fold it there or at the most get in as cheap as possible and see if your cards hit...dont like the raise there at all oop. Nor the cards.

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I agree that I would have played my hand much stronger had I had a strong pocket pair or AJ or AQ rather than AT in this situation. I thought I could play this pot 2 ways: check to see a free flop and see if I hit a flush draw then bet out. Or I could isolate villain who sees nearly every flop and hope to trap him. I put villain on a tighter range when he 3bet me even though the 3bet was small although I think the flop missed him as much as it missed me.

ClubArrow77 said:

Im playing at a really loose 2nl cash table against a maniac and think I made a wrong move. Heres the hand.

Party Poker - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem (9 players)
Party Poker Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $0.73
BB Hero: $2.75
UTG: $2
UTG+1: $1.85 (sitting out)
MP: $2.99
MP+1: $2.05
MP+2: $1.95
CO: $2
BTN: $2

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB and dealt
3 folds, MP+2 calls $0.02, CO folds, BTN calls $0.02, SB folds, Hero raises to $0.06, MP+2 raises to $0.10, BTN calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.31) (4 players)
Hero checks, MP+2 bets $0.22, BTN folds

Reads on villain is very loose (about 68 VP$IP) and would limp or raise nearly every hand. Showdown hands have ranged in strength from AQs to Q7o. I raised to try to gain more info on his hand strength and thin the crowd since given his looseness, I felt ATs would be good against him. Villain reraised 1 BB so I called and flop came blank for me. Villain bets pot which Ive seen him do numerous times even without the goods but since I had nothing, I folded. How was this play? Should I have checked and seen a free flop?

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I personally would have just called his raise pre-flop from the bb. I normally like to keep the pots small when out of position, especially against a maniac. That way you can chase your draws cheaper on the flop and turn.

baudib1 said:

The flop changed nothing like 50% of the time or more. I'd check-raise before folding.

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I am Surprised you would continue with this hand like this.

Is your reasoning on the flop:

Check- see if you can get your back door str8 draw cheap

and if bet

Raise- bluff / Semi-Bluff


Just curious as if Villian at least has something, which Check-raise UTG usually does, the best equity we can hope for here is 30%. ( Three 10's, Three A, and runner runner str8 or flush).

He's not UTG.

Given villain's description, he has nothing here quite a bit. I'd estimate that 30% is the worst-case scenario and we're ahead here at least 15% of the time.

Also, 30% is quite a bit to just surrender every time an aggro bets. Do you just fold overs to every single c-bet from an aggro?

Hand strength is relative. Against some players you should fold QQ to a 3-bet. Against others, you 4-bet/call/shove AK all day. Against this guy, AT is doing pretty good.

Not sure where you asking about a wrong move - but I sure wouldn't have raised the on the BB if I didn't also intend to follow through on the flop (which was dry as hell).
You checked the flop (CLASSIC WEAK) so of course he's going to bet it (probably has a read on you as tight?).
If you were only playing ATs as a spec hand then the best thing to do is get to the flop as cheap as you can. Since you gave up on the hand after the flop I can only assume you were playing it to hit or miss.
So if you are asking what your wrong move was it was making it into a bigger pot than you were willing to play.
Here comes that plan thing again. As the intital raiser you have to have a plan for these dry flops and as first to act it is totally reasonable for you to bet out after the flop. Let's say he was playing 78s and hit top pair (worst case scenario outside of trips) - you still have 6 outs to pair up AND a backdoor flush draw. I am at least going to bet the flop and see the turn for either a club or an A or T before I totally give up control of the hand.

baudib1 said:

He's not UTG.

Given villain's description, he has nothing here quite a bit. I'd estimate that 30% is the worst-case scenario and we're ahead here at least 15% of the time.

Also, 30% is quite a bit to just surrender every time an aggro bets. Do you just fold overs to every single c-bet from an aggro?

Hand strength is relative. Against some players you should fold QQ to a 3-bet. Against others, you 4-bet/call/shove AK all day. Against this guy, AT is doing pretty good.

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raising is not good at 2nl.
you dont know how he continues vs raise. and even if you have the skill set to raise and recognize good turn cards to continue on (we both know he has a superwide calling range vs a raise) you don't expect someone who just started to implement this successfully.

Just keep notes on his tendancies, in the long run u will have his bankroll as long as you are patient and have a good read on him.