Call shove KdJd in 5sAdTd flop against LAG

J

jvkalis30

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https://www.boomplayer.com/24646306_7319807842

What did you think about this hand guys?:jd4:
This player always trying to steal blinds...Most of times i 3B and he fold...This time he call 3B with AJo...Flop:5sAdTd i cbet 75% and he shoves...i call..In EV calculator this play is +EV what did you think?
 
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Specific advice on this hand
You have been playing tight, correct? So think what hands he will call your shove with and realise that he's only paying you off if he's hit the ace at the very least.
What you SHOULD DO, is let him keep betting into you and hope a diamond or queen comes up. If it comes, then reraising into him is totally fine. If you had just called the flop, you could have made him really pay you off once you hit as you appear to have 10s and he thinks he's outplaying you due to his table image. Your flop play was too telling and thus since he's only calling you with at least Ace-pair there, you've dug your own grave if your flush doesn't complete and your straight doesn't either.

You had better odds than him, even at the flop, but the way you played it meant that if the turn complimented him (by not completing you), you were cornered into a situation where he now has the odds on you.

General Advice on this situation
Do not let the looseness of others make you looser. Only let their aggression make you passive or their passivity make you aggressive.

The way you deal with LAG bullies is to wait for hits (even a pair is fine) and bet proportional to what you have, they will pay you off trying to overbet. Do not go into a hand where you haven't hit and aren't sure where they lie as the beauty of cash games is folding is always a legit option as you have unlimited hands.
 
JoseFerreras

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Pretty standard in my opinion. I would of check raise him all in on the flop, but same result.
 
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Pretty standard in my opinion. I would of check raise him all in on the flop, but same result.
Please see my post as this is incorrect because he is folding to you without ace hitting.
 
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Thanks for this great answer...Next time i play better with this advices!!!
Hace a Good Night :)
 
Keith_MM

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Specific advice on this hand
You have been playing tight, correct? So think what hands he will call your shove with and realise that he's only paying you off if he's hit the ace at the very least.
What you SHOULD DO, is let him keep betting into you and hope a diamond or queen comes up.
Do you ever actually watch the action / read the hand histories? hero 3bet him and villain called preflop , hero cbet and villain shoved .What you are advising is to bleed chips until you hit where villain then doesn't pay you off because of the obvious flush/possible straight crushing his aces.

If it comes, then reraising into him is totally fine. If you had just called the flop, you could have made him really pay you off once you hit as you appear to have 10s and he thinks he's outplaying you due to his table image.
WHAT? hero has 3bet pre , AK AA are going to be in his range and he should be cbetting this flop.No idea how you can say he appears to have Tens and and you know hardly anything about his table image
Your flop play was too telling and thus since he's only calling you with at least Ace-pair there, you've dug your own grave if your flush doesn't complete and your straight doesn't either.
so what exactly did his cbet say that was so telling to you? VILLAIN SHOVED NOT HERO , at least get the action correct.
You had better odds than him, even at the flop, but the way you played it meant that if the turn complimented him (by not completing you), you were cornered into a situation where he now has the odds on you.
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: AdTd5c
equity Win Tie
BU 53.89% 53.43% 0.45% { AsJh }
SB 46.11% 45.66% 0.45% { KdJd }

Villain was ahead with his shove even on the flop.
General Advice on this situation
Do not let the looseness of others make you looser. Only let their aggression make you passive or their passivity make you aggressive.

The way you deal with LAG bullies is to wait for hits (even a pair is fine) and bet proportional to what you have, they will pay you off trying to overbet. Do not go into a hand where you haven't hit and aren't sure where they lie as the beauty of cash games is folding is always a legit option as you have unlimited hands.
this is pretty bad advice as you are saying wait til you hit and they will overbet you ...... nope ,good aggro lags will realise that you are suddenly not folding , therefore have a hand and shutdown and don't pay you off , so you bleed chips waiting to hit and then win very little when you do hit and make it even more obvious by betting according to the strength of your hand.
 
widron2s

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You should never call his shoves. With a tight image, always be the one shoving and never the one calling because then the tight image goes away.
 
Keith_MM

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Pretty standard in my opinion. I would of check raise him all in on the flop, but same result.

Please see my post as this is incorrect because he is folding to you without ace hitting.

You talk as though villain folding is a disaster? In reality it has got a better hand to fold ( see the equities above). its a semi bluff , but with the action pre villain could easily have AK AQ AA TT which would be ahead of villains hand. That's fold equity in action.
 
IPlay

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This just comes down to math. We have 41% against against his most nutted range and pot odds say we need 38% for a call. So even if we think he is never bluffing and has a range of only AA,TT,AKs,ATs,AKo we can still call. Even more of a call if he ever has spew/weaker hands which he will at 2NL.

Most importantly, post this in the Hand Analysis forum.

EDIT: Haha, about 5 post in the few minutes I typed this out. Keith, why would you even bother reading Rationals wall of text? I'm pretty sure his strategy is based off a one time reading of Super System.
 
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I am telling the truth, call the flop, surrender if he hard shoves the turn, let him bully you so you can passive profit when you hit. He will stay in his habit thinking you are easy u til you get huge cooler to him and Bam he pays you all in worth.
 
IPlay

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I am telling the truth, call the flop, surrender if he hard shoves the turn, let him bully you so you can passive profit when you hit. He will stay in his habit thinking you are easy u til you get huge cooler to him and Bam he pays you all in worth.

Everyone gets coolered equally. You don't make money in poker by waiting for coolers. Also, you still have the hand history wrong
 
vinnie

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I am telling the truth, call the flop, surrender if he hard shoves the turn, let him bully you so you can passive profit when you hit. He will stay in his habit thinking you are easy u til you get huge cooler to him and Bam he pays you all in worth.

What you are not understanding, what you might be incapable of understanding, is that Hero did exactly this. He called on the flop. It wasn't Hero that shoved all in.

You are never going to learn if you read this poorly. Also, this post came with the actual hand. Did you not watch it?
 
vinnie

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For those that want a readable hand history.

SB (Hero): $2.91
BB: $0.81
UTG: $2.07
MP: $2.95
CO: $1.31
BTN: $3.00

Hero is dealt :kd4: :jd4:

Hero posts $0.01, BB posts $0.02, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, BTN calls $0.15

Flop: (Pot $0.42) :5c4: :ad4: :10d4:
Hero bets $0.31, BTN raises all-in $3.13, ... this is where the question is being asked.

If Hero calls, there will be a $5.84 pot. He needs to call $2.40. That means he needs 2.40/5.84 or 41.1% equity to call.

Or he is being offered $3.44 for $2.40 and needs 1.4333:1 pot odds, it's the same idea.

Against a range of 5-5, 10-10, A-A, and AT+... Hero has 42.14% equity. It's not great, but it's a call.

Edit: This range is also extremely tight: sets, top two pair, and top pair and a kicker above 10. Against a LAG, the real shove range might be even wider, which is better.
 
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For those that want a readable hand history.

SB (Hero): $2.91
BB: $0.81
UTG: $2.07
MP: $2.95
CO: $1.31
BTN: $3.00

Hero is dealt :kd4: :jd4:

Hero posts $0.01, BB posts $0.02, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.05, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, BTN calls $0.15

Flop: (Pot $0.42) :5c4: :ad4: :10d4:
Hero bets $0.31, BTN raises all-in $3.13, ... this is where the question is being asked.

If Hero calls, there will be a $5.84 pot. He needs to call $2.40. That means he needs 2.40/5.84 or 41.1% equity to call.

Or he is being offered $3.44 for $2.40 and needs 1.4333:1 pot odds, it's the same idea.

Against a range of 5-5, 10-10, A-A, and AT+... Hero has 42.14% equity. It's not great, but it's a call.

Edit: This range is also extremely tight: sets, top two pair, and top pair and a kicker above 10. Against a LAG, the real shove range might be even wider, which is better.

I'm telling the truth, you don't raise a LAG, you passively profit by calling then at River you can do reraising.

By raising, he incentivised the btn to hard reraise back if and only if he had hit aces, so he'd be making minimal profit if the lag missed flop and be guaranteeing being bullied into a hardcore coinflip where if the turn misses, he has the much worse odds.
 
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What you are not understanding, what you might be incapable of understanding, is that Hero did exactly this. He called on the flop. It wasn't Hero that shoved all in.

You are never going to learn if you read this poorly. Also, this post came with the actual hand. Did you not watch it?

I read very well now but used to be poor at it. He made error with the flop raising because he knew that the guy would bully him if he'd hit the ace which is possible due to the preflop action
 
vinnie

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I read very well now but used to be poor at it. He made error with the flop raising because he knew that the guy would bully him if he'd hit the ace which is possible due to the preflop action

Man, you need to work on your game so badly. You are really suggesting his line should have been call pre, call flop, call turn? And only bet/raise if he hit his obvious draw?
 
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Against someone as AG as what that guy is (and which he knew that guy is) answer is yes. You don't profit from AGs by being Agg, you profit from bullies by letting them bully you with nuts.
 
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His draw wouldn't be obvious, the LAG woudl have raised a lot less on the flop if he had just checked and the guy may read him as having K10 or something so if a dia hits try to bluff him into folding and then bam see?
 
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Math>Assumptions
Actually you are wrong but I won't argue further.

What you are arguing is true for all gambling games OTHER THAN poker and if you don't realize why poker is unique in that the raw odds matter less than reads then you won't profit in the long run.

Whatever you reply to this, I will read it and not reply. I am not arguing anymore with you. Something I learned about 2 years ago is that the way to remain happy isn't to be able to deal with toxic people but instead to actively avoid contact with them on every level. :)
 
Alucard

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I read very well now but used to be poor at it. He made error with the flop raising because he knew that the guy would bully him if he'd hit the ace which is possible due to the preflop action

he didn't flop raise the villain. He was the first to act at the small blind. He bet and the villain shoved.
 
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he didn't flop raise the villain. He was the first to act at the small blind. He bet and the villain shoved.
Should check!!!!!! Agains tsuper LAG you check when Ace comes and you dont have the ace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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1st of all i want to thank all of you for this great discussion...My picture in this tables wasnt tight...I was playing more Laggy...Then with 42% equtiy in this board with this villain...I think i call again this shove...This villain shove all in after a cbet many times...I thought thats a good idea to call...I dont think he has QQ+...Maybe 55-TT or something like AT-AQ...He was really lag 2...I dont think he call my 3B with hands like QQ+ or AK...Then when the flop hits i knew that he had an A with 9-Q...Sorry for bad English no my mother tongue!!!!:D
 
IPlay

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Actually you are wrong but I won't argue further.

Actually, I am not and you don't have a base to support your claims so I will take this as you conceding.

What you are arguing is true for all gambling games OTHER THAN poker and if you don't realize why poker is unique in that the raw odds matter less than reads then you won't profit in the long run.

I get what you are saying, we can use psychology in poker but the psychology benefits the math. With the range and math I showed above, if we know villain is steaming we can add looser hands and bluffs in his range which mathematically, makes it more of a call. Math will always be king in any card game but yes, I will agree we do need to consider the meta when calculating our math.

Whatever you reply to this, I will read it and not reply. I am not arguing anymore with you. Something I learned about 2 years ago is that the way to remain happy isn't to be able to deal with toxic people but instead to actively avoid contact with them on every level. :)

Rational, you are one of the more toxic individuals on the Cash Game forums and I am only correcting the poor advice you are giving to players that are trying to better their games. If you are as you say you are(a full time pro) you should probably learn the math of the game.
 
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Actually, I am not and you don't have a base to support your claims so I will take this as you conceding.



I get what you are saying, we can use psychology in poker but the psychology benefits the math. With the range and math I showed above, if we know villain is steaming we can add looser hands and bluffs in his range which mathematically, makes it more of a call. Math will always be king in any card game but yes, I will agree we do need to consider the meta when calculating our math.



Rational, you are one of the more toxic individuals on the Cash Game forums and I am only correcting the poor advice you are giving to players that are trying to better their games. If you are as you say you are(a full time pro) you should probably learn the math of the game.

I'll do you three dollar heads-up
 
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