AQs multiway, flush draw

tripa is a 15/6/3 TAG who is kinda tricky and will play a wider range than those stats would seem to indicate. Loves to play in position, float and bet later streets... trickier than your typical $25NL tag and very difficult to distinguish bluffs from real hands. The other two are passive calling station who will call anything preflop once they have .25 in.


Table 'California' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Zermudas ($23.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Takez0Kensei ($23.55 in chips)
Seat 3: Imfrenchlool ($25 in chips)
Seat 4: vanajr ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Tygran37 ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: Pally.eu ($32.65 in chips)
Seat 7: ryanDboy ($43.70 in chips)
Seat 8: tripa22 ($38.95 in chips)
Seat 9: jesus888 ($24.65 in chips)
Takez0Kensei: posts small blind $0.10
Imfrenchlool: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Ac Qc]
vanajr: calls $0.25
Tygran37: raises $0.75 to $1
Pally.eu: folds
ryanDboy: folds
tripa22: calls $1
jesus888: folds
Zermudas: folds
Takez0Kensei: folds
Imfrenchlool: calls $0.75
vanajr: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6c Kc]
Imfrenchlool: checks
vanajr: checks
Tygran37: ??


What line to start with?

Since the preflop stuff is a little less interesting.. and this is why i was mainly asking the question.

I went ahead and put in a c-bet/semi-bluff of $3 and get mini-reraised.

The most obvious card is a K. but this person is more capable than most of making moves in position as I said in OP.

What's our line now?

Table 'California' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Zermudas ($23.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Takez0Kensei ($23.55 in chips)
Seat 3: Imfrenchlool ($25 in chips)
Seat 4: vanajr ($7.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Tygran37 ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: Pally.eu ($32.65 in chips)
Seat 7: ryanDboy ($43.70 in chips)
Seat 8: tripa22 ($38.95 in chips)
Seat 9: jesus888 ($24.65 in chips)
Takez0Kensei: posts small blind $0.10
Imfrenchlool: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Ac Qc]
vanajr: calls $0.25
Tygran37: raises $0.75 to $1
Pally.eu: folds
ryanDboy: folds
tripa22: calls $1
jesus888: folds
Zermudas: folds
Takez0Kensei: folds
Imfrenchlool: calls $0.75
vanajr: calls $0.75
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6c Kc]
Imfrenchlool: checks
vanajr: checks
Tygran37: bets $3
tripa22: raises $3 to $6
Imfrenchlool: folds
vanajr: folds
Tygran37:??

I think I would go ahead and get it in here. If he is capable of making moves, I think you have enough equity in the pot combined with some folding equity to make it +ev.

How would you play AK in this scenario?

I would shove it here. Even if he has a K you are still have a lot of outs, and you will fold a lot of hands like middle pocket pairs that you are 50/50 with.

F Paulsson said:

How would you play AK in this scenario?

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how do you think villian would play AK/KQ?

Munchrs said:

how do you think villian would play AK/KQ?

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How do you think villain would play 22-55, 77-TT, 86s, 76, 65, 64s ?

My question was more a concern of balancing. I.e. if we're shoving with AsQs here, we should probably be shoving with AK as well.

A bet/3-bet all-in line is ok here just cause this villain is capable of raising this board with hands that a shove can fold out that currently have us beat. As FP pointed out, you obviously have to balance this by plaing AK bet/3-bet as well. Off the top of my head, he only has to fold like 30ish% of the time or so before shoving shows a profit.

yea freddie i ge tthat and mine was more along the lines of if villian likes to play in position then he would probably be 3 betting AK p/f but because he hasnt he may have a weaker ace or KQ type hands, if he has a King he slowplays as it fits with his tricky style, I would fold to the minraise.

F Paulsson said:

My question was more a concern of balancing. I.e. if we're shoving with AsQs here, we should probably be shoving with AK as well.

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This is a very valid point. Although I'm not so sure we really need to balance our game at 25NL.

Munchrs said:

I would fold to the minraise.

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Do you hate money?

The only way this fold makes sense is if Villain has KK, 55, or K5. We're getting 3.6:1 to continue. Even if our ace draw is no good, and 1 of our clubs gives villain a full house, we still have 8 good outs! That's a 5.25:1 draw, and we're certainly getting implied odds here to make up for the fact that we don't have exact odds to draw. We have to at least call.

I swear Munchrs, do you just set mine all day, and refuse to get your money in with less than a full house?

BelgoSuisse said:

This is a very valid point. Although I'm not so sure we really need to balance our game at 25NL.

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I don't agree with this. I played $25NL only a few months ago, and while people were a bit confused about which hands to value bet and which ones to induce bluffs with, it's dangerous to think they won't notice if you're a compulsive slowplayer with flopped trips but shoving left and right with draws.

F Paulsson said:

I don't agree with this. I played $25NL only a few months ago, and while people were a bit confused about which hands to value bet and which ones to induce bluffs with, it's dangerous to think they won't notice if you're a compulsive slowplayer with flopped trips but shoving left and right with draws.

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I'd agree with this.

It's probably *less* important at $25 than it is at $50 or certainly $100 NL but that isn't to say it's not important! enough people do pay attention.

besides..it establishes good habits for when you do move up.

c9h13no3 said:

Do you hate money?

The only way this fold makes sense is if Villain has KK, 55, or K5. We're getting 3.6:1 to continue. Even if our ace draw is no good, and 1 of our clubs gives villain a full house, we still have 8 good outs! That's a 5.25:1 draw, and we're certainly getting implied odds here to make up for the fact that we don't have exact odds to draw. We have to at least call.

I swear Munchrs, do you just set mine all day, and refuse to get your money in with less than a full house?

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no i do not hate money. Do you?

sorry, i didnt actually see that we had a FD. In ligh of that your right we should definately not be folding although I'm not sure weter raisng or calling is best because if we raise and get pushed are we going to cal an all in? well unless you hate money we will, which I dont really like seeing as though we only have 8-12 good outs most of the time and if villian has a K we are vitually crippled and not really getting pot odds to get it in with a FD. I prefer a call to raisng as we may be able to get a free card on the turn if we miss because villian may be bluffing with air.

No i get my money in with 2nd pair, against the right opponent.

Munchrs said:

sorry, i didnt actually see that we had a FD.

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That explains a lot about your post

As far as raise vs. call, I think I like a call in this spot. These min-raises usually mean "please don't go away", especially at full ring. If we hit on the turn, we can almost certainly stack him unless he's on a total bluff. Since we've got $18 left behind, I'd rather make a 3$ investment, and when we hit, get our 15$ left in ahead.

If our villain were more active & more likely to be making a play at you, then I'd be all for shoving. But at least at the stakes I play at, I usually regret not respecting these min-raises. I guess with your read, a shove is less marginal. But I still think this could go either way.

c9h13no3 said:

If our villain were more active & more likely to be making a play at you, then I'd be all for shoving. But at least at the stakes I play at, I usually regret not respecting these min-raises. I guess with your read, a shove is less marginal. But I still think this could go either way.

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This is kinda what I was debating between and just wanted to get more opinions on it. The past history with this player was certainly playing a role in my thinking.

I strongly thought about shoving and nearly did..was almost 50/50 in my mind between shove/call.

I called, the turn was a blank
and the action went check-check which surprised me.

The river was also a blank so at this point I missed my draw and just have A high. I checked and folded to a river bet...

That action was awfully unusual for a king though... doesn't mean I wasn't beat but I almost think I was probably against a medium pp, maybe a 6 (67 or something) or a lower flush draw.

Yeah, that kind of play just reeks of a hand like 88.

i think your right with the read that its a medium pp,

c9h13no3 said:

Yeah, that kind of play just reeks of a hand like 88.

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Which is why you need to shove villain's raise on the flop. you are 50/50 against medium pairs, but you have something like 99% fold equity against them, so shoving is hugely +EV.

BelgoSuisse said:

Which is why you need to shove villain's raise on the flop. you are 50/50 against medium pairs, but you have something like 99% fold equity against them, so shoving is hugely +EV.

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Hello results oriented post.

His range isn't all medium pairs. Plus, I think 99% fold equity is a LARGE exaggeration at these stakes.

c9h13no3 said:

Hello results oriented post.

His range isn't all medium pairs. Plus, I think 99% fold equity is a LARGE exaggeration at these stakes.

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Of course his range isn't all medium pairs, but getting medium pairs and x6 to fold is what makes shoving this flop profitable.

BelgoSuisse said:

Of course his range isn't all medium pairs, but getting medium pairs and x6 to fold is what makes shoving this flop profitable.

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See, I honestly think villain is calling this flop shove with 88 like half the time.

And maybe things are different at 25$ NL, but at 10$ NL a min-raise usually means that "I has the king, please don't leave".

Since this player is a little trickier/good, then I don't mind a shove either, since his min-raise is with a wider range. But I honestly don't hate calling either, since if we hit our draw, we're usually getting pretty good implied odds. If the flush hits on the turn/river, I honestly expect villain to pay us off.

If villain's range is 56s, 67s, 77, 88, 99, TT, KQ, KJ, how much equity do we have against it? And how often do we need folds out of the bottom 4 hands or so to make this profitable? I'd run the numbers myself, but I'm at work. I'm betting we need more folds than you think.

c9h13no3 said:

And maybe things are different at 25$ NL, but at 10$ NL a min-raise usually means that "I has the king, please don't leave".

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I play mostly 25NL and I'd say this kind of min-raise usually means "I don't believe you have the king but I don't have the guts to make a real raise to find out. Please go away"

c9h13no3 said:

See, I honestly think villain is calling this flop shove with 88 like half the time.

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^^ this.. villain isn't folding 88 anywhere near all the time here. Can pretty much guarantee that.

Villain is probably going to correctly put me on a flush draw or strongly consider the possibility in which case a call wouldn't be surprising. (incidentally this is also why we need to shove the king in this spot sometimes too)