AQ flops TPTK on wet board in multiway pot [200nl FR]

[zachvac]

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP2: $203 (101.5 bb)
MP3: $531.35 (265.7 bb)
CO: $200 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $268.45 (134.2 bb)
SB: $38 (19 bb)
BB: $200 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $257.25 (128.6 bb)
MP1: $43 (21.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A

Q

3 folds, MP3 raises to $6, CO calls $6, Hero calls $6, 2 folds

Flop: ($21) T

Q

8

(3 players)
MP3 bets $14, CO calls $14

MP3 is decent TAG reg and CO is new guy but with small sample seems solid. Calling sucks because half the deck kills us, folding seems weak, and raising kind of commits us to stack off because of all the draws even though we are killed by a stack-off range. Plan?

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Why do you flat preflop? MP3 is too tight to make a 3bet profitable here?

 

[F Paulsson]

A line I experiment with in 3way pots is minraising. It's going to put tremendous pressure on MP3, because he has another player yet to act behind him, and while he probably won't fold anything better, you will at least create a little more dead money when he does fold. If you're up against a big hand, you'll find out before the action gets back to you, and it's only $14.

True, you're bloating the pot a little, but if it gets reraised you have a pretty easy fold (I presume), one of them folding is a good result for you, and if both of them call then you will most of the time have initiative on the turn and can decide to check back and go for a cheap showdown.

 

[zachvac]

Why do you flat preflop? MP3 is too tight to make a 3bet profitable here?

Well neither one ever flats AJ- to a 3-bet oop so my thought process was it folds out worse and gets 3-bets from better. I considered it though because with the call there's some dead money in the pot (assuming he's not calling with the intention to back-raise). But I think I looked and he was like 10/9 from MP so I decided against it.

 

[viking999]

I'm not crazy about min-raising, because it looks likely that someone's on a draw. On a drier flop, I think it's ok, but here I think you're saving a little against monsters and losing a lot versus draws.

I don't think making a 3-3.5x raise commits us because of the draws. A lot of the draws are going to be combo draws which have us beat. Also, I think MP3 with a draw is less likely to shove in this situation with another player left to act. And the other guy already flatted once, so I figure he's not likely to suddenly want to play a draw aggressively because you raised.

So I would make a 3-3.5x raise and fold to any shove.

P.S. - zachvac, I've never heard anyone refer to a flop as "wet". That is the BEST!

 

[widowmaker89]

Whats your 3bet % zach? Im not sure I like your reasoning for not 3betting here, especially since its a squeeze chance. You will fold out a lot of smaller PP that are in his range, or if you dont I would assume he is just set mining which is even better for us. I dont think we need worse(as in dominated with Ax hands) to call for it to be profitable. Obviously depending on the villians stats (fold to 3bet is better than PFR here I think to judge, a lot of nits fold most of their PFR range to 3bets). This is especially true since its a squeeze, its going to be hard for MP3 to play this hand without the very top of his range.

 

[vanquish]

calling is fine tbh, if you're afraid that a raise will never get called but only raised (which may be the case because a lot of regs will ship their strong draws and 2pr + sets, and fold their one pair hands) and then obv reevaluate turn

 

[vanquish]

Whats your 3bet % zach? Im not sure I like your reasoning for not 3betting here, especially since its a squeeze chance. You will fold out a lot of smaller PP that are in his range, or if you dont I would assume he is just set mining which is even better for us. I dont think we need worse(as in dominated with Ax hands) to call for it to be profitable. Obviously depending on the villians stats (fold to 3bet is better than PFR here I think to judge, a lot of nits fold most of their PFR range to 3bets). This is especially true since its a squeeze, its going to be hard for MP3 to play this hand without the very top of his range.

u would essentially be turning ur AQo into a bluff if u squeezed and then had to continue on any flop that wasn't huge for ur hand. it's like squeezing TT or JJ, u turn a good hand into a bluff a lot of the time (u don't wanna do that too much)

 

[widowmaker89]

Makes sense, so you squeeze with what, QQ+ and suited connectors? MP3 cant really call or raise here without a hand that dominates us I would say, and I like our hand vs CO range as well. What do you do here if we are SB?

 

[vanquish]

Makes sense, so you squeeze with what, QQ+ and suited connectors? MP3 cant really call or raise here without a hand that dominates us I would say, and I like our hand vs CO range as well. What do you do here if we are SB?

yea, QQ+, a bunch of suited hands, sometimes Axs, some Kxs

 

[widowmaker89]

So we flat and fold if we dont hit the flop? I think we take this pot down so often here, i understand we give up a small amount of value of our hand but I still think its the play. I dont think its like 3betting TT because AQ we are hitting much less flops with huge hands. If we are dominated with TT and hit we will win a huge pot opposed to having to toss it to a 4bet when we had a 20% of winning a huge pot. AQ hits much less huge flops. If we hit a Q or A we arent overly excited about it really since we will probably just get a bet out of it unless we lose. You flat AK too? Granted there are tons more combos we are worried about with AQ but Im not sure thats reason not to 3bet?

 

[Leo 50]

As someone who considers himself a decent card player and not a true analytical player (I consider the pot odds, implied etc.)
I can't see folding as an option.
My gut (based on your description of the players) is at least one of them has a draw and you have top pair with top kicker.

Call the bet and see what hits.

Just my .02

 

[vanquish]

So we flat and fold if we dont hit the flop? I think we take this pot down so often here, i understand we give up a small amount of value of our hand but I still think its the play. I dont think its like 3betting TT because AQ we are hitting much less flops with huge hands. If we are dominated with TT and hit we will win a huge pot opposed to having to toss it to a 4bet when we had a 20% of winning a huge pot. AQ hits much less huge flops. If we hit a Q or A we arent overly excited about it really since we will probably just get a bet out of it unless we lose. You flat AK too? Granted there are tons more combos we are worried about with AQ but Im not sure thats reason not to 3bet?

you don't flat AK unless you're convinced that villains will only continue against ur squeeze with AK, JJ+ etc.

 

[widowmaker89]

So you flat AK if they are only continuing with that range(which I dont think is too crazy for a 10/9 getting squeezed)? We fold out so many hands that have pretty good equity against us you dont think just taking the pot down now is correct considering we miss a majority of flops? Im throwing AQ in here with the same argument and thinking we take a lot more flops down this way than by flatting and hoping to hit a TPTK type hand? I am not really grasping your argument I guess.

 

[viking999]

u would essentially be turning ur AQo into a bluff if u squeezed and then had to continue on any flop that wasn't huge for ur hand. it's like squeezing TT or JJ, u turn a good hand into a bluff a lot of the time (u don't wanna do that too much)

Would you flat call with AK? By your reasoning, I think you would be "turning AK into a bluff" by reraising as well, because the calling range is going to be mostly pairs and other AKs. I don't call it turning it into a bluff, I call it applying pressure and taking the betting lead. You may not be a favorite against the calling range in terms of showdown wins, but you can increase your win % substantially by continuation betting after taking the lead. By flatting, you're only going to win a maximum of 30-ish percent of the time even heads up (the times you flop top pair or better). If you reraise, I think you can bump it up to well over 50%, maybe even 60%. You will lose more when you fail to hit the board and he has a good hand on the flop, but I think pushing out better hands by c-betting the other flops makes up for that.

EDIT: I see I was a little too late with this post. DOH!

 

[vanquish]

So you flat AK if they are only continuing with that range(which I dont think is too crazy for a 10/9 getting squeezed)? We fold out so many hands that have pretty good equity against us you dont think just taking the pot down now is correct considering we miss a majority of flops? Im throwing AQ in here with the same argument and thinking we take a lot more flops down this way than by flatting and hoping to hit a TPTK type hand? I am not really grasping your argument I guess.

AQo has good equity in a 3way raised pot, i really dont mind seeing a flop 3ways. don't really know, i only play .25/,50

 

[vanquish]

Would you flat call with AK? By your reasoning, I think you would be "turning AK into a bluff" by reraising as well, because the calling range is going to be mostly pairs and other AKs. I don't call it turning it into a bluff, I call it applying pressure and taking the betting lead. You may not be a favorite against the calling range in terms of showdown wins, but you can increase your win % substantially by continuation betting after taking the lead. By flatting, you're only going to win a maximum of 30-ish percent of the time even heads up (the times you flop top pair or better). If you reraise, I think you can bump it up to well over 50%, maybe even 60%. You will lose more when you fail to hit the board and he has a good hand on the flop, but I think pushing out better hands by c-betting the other flops makes up for that.

EDIT: I see I was a little too late with this post. DOH!

also ur assuming that when the guy with JJ+, AK continues, he's calling ur 3bet, and not 4betting, so you may either never get to see a flop, or never get a chance to cbet (10/9 isnt very likely to flatcall ur 3bet with JJ+, AK, he's prob more likely to just jam on u)

 

[widowmaker89]

Would you flat call with AK? By your reasoning, I think you would be "turning AK into a bluff" by reraising as well, because the calling range is going to be mostly pairs and other AKs. I don't call it turning it into a bluff, I call it applying pressure and taking the betting lead. You may not be a favorite against the calling range in terms of showdown wins, but you can increase your win % substantially by continuation betting after taking the lead. By flatting, you're only going to win a maximum of 30-ish percent of the time even heads up (the times you flop top pair or better). If you reraise, I think you can bump it up to well over 50%, maybe even 60%. You will lose more when you fail to hit the board and he has a good hand on the flop, but I think pushing out better hands by c-betting the other flops makes up for that.

EDIT: I see I was a little too late with this post. DOH!

Dont forget the times you are facing QQ+ AK and decide to flat and lose a stack, or big pot at least, when you do hit TPTK. If you get 4bet here id guess its QQ+, AK, so we arent really losing much by doing this since we can just toss it. I guess it gets a little dicey if they flat, and it would really depend on the villian then but its not like we have to go crazy since we are IP here. I dont expect a 10/9 to flat too often anyway.

 

[widowmaker89]

Whats wrong with being jammed against JJ+, AK? We are absolutely crushed by this range and didnt lose to much to find out. Are we folding every flop we dont hit as well? If not we will lose the same amount if we float to not find much out.

When he has this part of his range we are likely not going to win the pot, we may lose a lot when we hit out hand but probably wont win much. He is also folding out a majority of the PFR range by a 3bet.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

don't really know, i only play .25/,50

LOL.

please, vanq, tell me when you move up to 100nl so i can table select out of your tables for the little time it will take you to move higher.

 

[zachvac]

fwiw I'm probably flatting AK here as well. I probably 3-bet with like QQ+, not sure about JJ here. I'd also flat with most pairs. Honestly I guess folding AQ preflop wouldn't be terrible. In general I'm not going to 3-bet light a lot against MP openers (unless they're just crazy lag, but in that case I 3-bet to get it in light generally) although I guess that was hijack so could go either way.

Anyway results were that I flatted, diamond hit (I think 3d), guy who bet flop bet the turn for almost pot. I figure after we both call flop betting into both of us on turn with that turn card we're almost never good so after CO folds I fold as well.

 

[widowmaker89]

You flat AK? how profitable is AK for you? Thing about UTG or MP raisers who are regs is that they know that you know they raised in EP or MP and most wont call without being at the top of their range, especially since they are OOP. He was 10/9 so he is raising plenty of hands here that arent QQ+, AK so he will mostly be folding, especially on a squeeze. If he 4bets you can toss your hand knowing that you are in really bad shape. Whats the point of even flatting? Hope to hit a TPGK hand and try to control the pot? I just dont see many chances to win there.

 

[zachvac]

You flat AK? how profitable is AK for you? Thing about UTG or MP raisers who are regs is that they know that you know they raised in EP or MP and most wont call without being at the top of their range, especially since they are OOP. He was 10/9 so he is raising plenty of hands here that arent QQ+, AK so he will mostly be folding, especially on a squeeze. If he 4bets you can toss your hand knowing that you are in really bad shape. Whats the point of even flatting? Hope to hit a TPGK hand and try to control the pot? I just dont see many chances to win there.

Well this is sticky since it's multiway but HU basically I'm just going to try to take it away a lot. Even with a strong UTG range the bulk of it is one-pair hands that will fold to resistance. If I flat button they have to figure I have a set a good amount of the time they face resistance postflop. Obviously it depends on opponent, board, etc. but for example on a 248r board where I know his raising range is like 99+/AK I can raise turn and fire turn pretty profitably. Usually firing rivers to push them off overpairs isn't smart but most regs will fold hands like AA/KK to that action. Raising however obviously they get in their premiums and fold the stuff we beat. I just think playing a hand in position with a pretty good hand against an extremely narrow range is overall a pretty good spot to be in and raising just kills everything we have going for us.

edit: note that this is only for like nitty EP/MP raisers. If they raise from LP and I have AK typically I'll 3-bet for value and not hesitate to get it in. Also if it's a lag in EP/MP I'll do the same thing, just 3-bet and get it in. But I will rarely 3-bet fold AK. Only exception is when a nit 4-bets us and we're oop. It's too hard to flat AK oop against a strong range and we know he folds pretty much all but KK+ to the 3-bet it's correct to 3-bet even if he only opens 10% on the button, especially considering we have blockers to aces and kings. Note that this also means we can 3-bet him profitably with ATC, but we need to do it at a frequency that he does not notice this and adjust. Ax/Kx are good here because they are good blockers to the hands he'll 4-bet stack.