Any way to get away from set over set here?

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ginNjuice

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I'm playing a 1/2 NL game at the Taj Mahal on a monday night. The games fairly tight but has it weak spots as well. I haven't played many pots and have been at the table for about an hour and am up $30. On the button, there are a few limpers in middle position and the cutoff, a tight aggressive player who i feel knows what he's doing raises to $18. It's higher than the usual raise for the table of $8-$12. My gut told me big pair and i look down to find two black 5s. I figure i double up if i hit my set so i call, the rest fold and the flop comes down Q K 5 with the K and Q being clubs. He leads out and bets $35. completely forgetting my pre-flop read i raise him to $85 thinking my set is good. He pushes and i immediately call with my last $140. I show him my 5s and he flips over queens for the 2nd best set. My question is if there's any possible way to get away from this hand. I know i could have folded preflop but i felt the implied odds were there. any opinions?
 
mrsnake3695

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AK, AA, KQ, plays it just about the same I think so Folding the 5s would have been very hard to do. I don't mind the call preflop, you have position and a hand that can felt someone if you hit good. You might have been better off smooth calling the flop raise and see if he comes at you again on the turn and reevaluate then but I still doubt you could give up the hand unless you got a strong reed he had KK or QQ, which would be hard to know for sure.
 
blankoblanco

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Don't see much chance of getting away from a set here. You got coolered.
 
shinedown.45

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You read him as a solid player and put him on a high pair preflop, you have 55 and the flop comes up K-Q-5, now if he shot in that $35 without hesitation and with a K,Q on board, along with the read you had on him, you should have really considered folding, I may have if I had a read on him, sure trips are hard to lay down but with the read it should have been a consideration.
 
ChuckTs

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They say if you didn't go broke with set over set, then you played it wrong. Unless you and your opponent are hugely deepstacked, i really don't see anybody folding this.
 
Bombjack

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How are you planning to double up if you don't both get all your money in?
 
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12skin

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i always hate low pockets because i know i am in for a beating. pocket twos are the worst. Remember that when you get a pair, there is a 50% chance someone else got a pair also. So when you get pocket 5 there are 9 possible pockets someone else is holding that may be higher. He ended up having QQ which is the 50% chance I was talking about and a Q flopped on the board.

I would have probrobly folded my pocket 5s - I mean you said it was an aggressive player who knew what he was doing and he raised $18. Did you not put him on a high pair then? If you didn't fold before the flop when that kq fell after even with trips you probrobly should have seen the signs. I think you got caught up in feeling entitled to win with your trips.
 
stormswa

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no way

no way you are folding this, if anyone says they are then they are crazy. You lost set vs. set no big deal happens. If you fold this to a board like this your nuts, he could of had alot of hands QK, AK, AQ, 2 spades. I would of had my chips in that pot sooooo fast, rebuy and continue on.

I dont mind preflop either.
 
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I fold pre-flop, but once you've seen the flop, it's over. Pay the man off and re-buy.
 
Marklar

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This happened to me once... okay like 5 times, but I was playing $3/$6 on Fulltilt (not my normal stakes :eek: ) and have already more than doubled up then there was this guy with like $10,000 at the table he was under the gun and raised it 5x and I had pocket 9s so I called

The flop came K97. He bets pot $65 and I raise it to $200 he re-raises to $600 and I get this bad feeling that he has KK then I start thinking and feel he would play the same way if he had AK or AA so I pushed all in and he flipped over AA. I was so relieved and excited to win about a pot over $2000!

Darn Ace shows up on the turn :eek:

now that I think about it, I believe I've been drown out on (2 outers) more often that both of us flopping a set.
In your situation I wouldn't have folded. If it were Limit holdem there's bound to be a whole bunch of reraising in which case it's easier to get the sense that you're beaten so would slow down. I've flopped some small sets before and with betting capped on the flop and my opponent not slowing down on the turn i have just called down fearing a bigger set but cant recall it happening very often.

Besides you can always redraw for quads :D (if anyones been able to do this please let me know)
 
Suited Frenzy

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Yes i would've layed the pkt 5s down preflop w/ that big of a raise in front. I know what you were thinking though like you said if you hit then youre probably good but in that case w/ 9 times the BB raise then you have to know you were beat preflop & had to lay it down. How did you take it & how did you overcome that lose?
 
stormswa

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ok

people that say you should of known you were beat pre-flop.



no shit...


the point of running small pocket pairs is not to win with best hand preflop but to hit your set and stack someone who over value's there overpair. You got exactly what you wanted and got set over set, IT HAPPENS. rebuy and continue.
 
edge-t

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stormswa said:
people that say you should of known you were beat pre-flop.



no shit...


the point of running small pocket pairs is not to win with best hand preflop but to hit your set and stack someone who over value's there overpair. You got exactly what you wanted and got set over set, IT HAPPENS. rebuy and continue.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!! How else do you play for set value? I would have done the same, get your stack in the middle as fast as you can shove.

For your info, I love small pocket pairs, epecially when they hit the flop hard.

Plus, it's easy to get away from them if the flop doesn't give you a set. Big pocket pairs are nice, but it's harder to get away from them when it's clear that you're beat. I can't count the number of times I've seen people push their stack into the middle of the table, with a monochrome board.

I heart small pocket pairs!
 
Jack Daniels

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Well, I do agree that in all likelihood you do stack off on this once you have your set. But I disagree that calling the PF raise with the OP's read was the "right" thing to do. He says he feels this player is TAG and knows what he is doing. So the TAG player sees several limpers and raised large enough to cover the limps and cut the odds to call. After several limps and a big raise by (a percieved) experienced, TAG player, I lay the 55 down pre-flop. Yeah I know the argument about implied odds if you hit your set. But the likelihood is you will miss your set and with that many players you wind up beaten more often than not (and that includes times you do hit your set and one of several other players hits a set too).

If it was folded around to him and he raised from the CO, then I'd be more likely to call. And if he limped and so did I, then bye bye stack is my guess. But, IMO, as played, this is an easy PF fold.
 
MrDaMan

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I don't see a problem calling with you pocket 5's, if you trust your read of the guy that he's got a high pocket pair then your looking to out flop him as cheaply as possible.

Now you got your set, unfortuantely 2 high cards came with it, now you have to figure out if he's hit his set. Hes first to act and bets 35 bucks and you're not quite sure if it's a continuation bet or if he actually hit.

If you think he hit, you fold, if you're not sure then your raise to 85 should be a probing bet for information, NOT a raise for value.

Ok you say he's tight and a good player, you think his original raise was with a high pocket pair. He comes over the top of your raise with an all-in re-raise. TELL TELL TELL That is a huge TELL. FOLD FOLD FOLD!

You have 140.00 left, you should pretty much know your beat. He hasn't been bullying people with his chips, he hasn't been bluffing at pots, he's been tight and agressive, if he's tight and agressive here your flat out beat.

If he's been loose, bluffing at pots, making donk plays out of position and you have a good read on him and you think he's on a bluff or A/K then I'd call. if he's been tight and solid, agressive allways showing the best hand at showdown you have to fold that set and look for a better hand to challenge the table with.

Now please believe I'm not criticizing your play negatively, I've made that same call under simular circumstances many times. I've learned to SLOW down and THINK through may hands.

Especially when my whole bankroll on the table is at stake, to me at this point in my game, after the probing bet with his all in, I'm not gambling my bankroll with a solid, TAG player whos been winning his showdowns.

For me this is an easy lay down after his all-in to my probing bet. Make that fairly easy LOL... because I know exactly, the human emotion of I've got a set and can double up with the all-in! The I can double up is so much more in front of your mind than I can lose this to his higher set. I've learned to slow down, think it through and lay down a hand that might suck out my entire bankroll on the table. On the other hand I'm not allways that perfect either, sometimes I still call this kind of hand and berate myself later, but truthfully I'm getting better at laying that hand down.

Great post ... everyone has to go through this kind of hand somewhere in thier poker career. Beware of the saying; "Sometines you just have to pay them off." Truth is sometimes you do but don't let it become an excuse for losing your bankroll when you know better.
 
stormswa

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well

MrDaMan said:
I don't see a problem calling with you pocket 5's, if you trust your read of the guy that he's got a high pocket pair then your looking to out flop him as cheaply as possible.

Now you got your set, unfortuantely 2 high cards came with it, now you have to figure out if he's hit his set. Hes first to act and bets 35 bucks and you're not quite sure if it's a continuation bet or if he actually hit.

If you think he hit, you fold, if you're not sure then your raise to 85 should be a probing bet for information, NOT a raise for value.

Ok you say he's tight and a good player, you think his original raise was with a high pocket pair. He comes over the top of your raise with an all-in re-raise. TELL TELL TELL That is a huge TELL. FOLD FOLD FOLD!

You have 140.00 left, you should pretty much know your beat. He hasn't been bullying people with his chips, he hasn't been bluffing at pots, he's been tight and agressive, if he's tight and agressive here your flat out beat.

If he's been loose, bluffing at pots, making donk plays out of position and you have a good read on him and you think he's on a bluff or A/K then I'd call. if he's been tight and solid, agressive allways showing the best hand at showdown you have to fold that set and look for a better hand to challenge the table with.

Now please believe I'm not criticizing your play negatively, I've made that same call under simular circumstances many times. I've learned to SLOW down and THINK through may hands.

Especially when my whole bankroll on the table is at stake, to me at this point in my game, after the probing bet with his all in, I'm not gambling my bankroll with a solid, TAG player whos been winning his showdowns.

For me this is an easy lay down after his all-in to my probing bet. Make that fairly easy LOL... because I know exactly, the human emotion of I've got a set and can double up with the all-in! The I can double up is so much more in front of your mind than I can lose this to his higher set. I've learned to slow down, think it through and lay down a hand that might suck out my entire bankroll on the table. On the other hand I'm not allways that perfect either, sometimes I still call this kind of hand and berate myself later, but truthfully I'm getting better at laying that hand down.

Great post ... everyone has to go through this kind of hand somewhere in thier poker career. Beware of the saying; "Sometines you just have to pay them off." Truth is sometimes you do but don't let it become an excuse for losing your bankroll when you know better.
Click to expand...


it shouldnt be losing your bankroll when you know better because you shouldnt be sitting at the table with your bankroll to begin with. You do have to pay this player off, flopping a set vs set you are going broke regardless, if you dont go broke here you played your hand wrong.
 
D

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i think its to hard to get away from that hand the only possible way out was if u gt rerasied pre flop which obviously didnt hapen
 
MrDaMan

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it shouldnt be losing your bankroll when you know better because you shouldnt be sitting at the table with your bankroll to begin with. You do have to pay this player off, flopping a set vs set you are going broke regardless, if you dont go broke here you played your hand wrong.
Click to expand...

I guess I should be more clear in my posts, What I meant by "bankroll" was the total of his chips at the table .... not the whole "BANKROLL" as total of his financial poker empire. I can see where someone might think that's what I meant, I'll be more carefull in the future. I probably should have said your whole stake in the game.

And I humbly disagree about paying this player off, his description of the player is TAG, he put him on a high pair, and after a re-raise probing bet the TAG player goes all-in ... it's a good fold. You would still have 140.00 left of your "stake at the table" to re-build.

I mentioned in my last post that I am not immune to making that call, but I am getting better at making that lay down, Getting a good read and trusting your instincts in a situation like this can be critical. This is one of those hads that DON'T have to be paid off.

I would say to call the all-in in this situation is playing the hand wrong. But then it's the differances between people that make poker so interesting, sometines were playing cards, sometimes were playing people, it's the human element that makes anything possible at the poker table.
 
stormswa

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MrDaMan said:
I guess I should be more clear in my posts, What I meant by "bankroll" was the total of his chips at the table .... not the whole "BANKROLL" as total of his financial poker empire. I can see where someone might think that's what I meant, I'll be more carefull in the future. I probably should have said your whole stake in the game.

And I humbly disagree about paying this player off, his description of the player is TAG, he put him on a high pair, and after a re-raise probing bet the TAG player goes all-in ... it's a good fold. You would still have 140.00 left of your "stake at the table" to re-build.

I mentioned in my last post that I am not immune to making that call, but I am getting better at making that lay down, Getting a good read and trusting your instincts in a situation like this can be critical. This is one of those hads that DON'T have to be paid off.

I would say to call the all-in in this situation is playing the hand wrong. But then it's the differances between people that make poker so interesting, sometines were playing cards, sometimes were playing people, it's the human element that makes anything possible at the poker table.
Click to expand...


if you are going to make this call preflop to hit your set then you are going to pay him off every single time or there is no point in playing this hand at all. villain will make this play also with AA or any pair over the top card on the board. didnt notice there was a K on the flop also he would also make this play with AK.


if you are just going to fold your set then dont play it in the 1st place.


truthfully the odds here are that you have the best hand, getting setted sucks but it happens. If you dont lose all your money here I believe you played your hand wrong. Just because he is a TAG player dosent mean he has one of the only 2 hands that beat you. Unless I knew this player from numerous sittings im not folding.
 
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