AKo facing sss + nit's 120+ bb cold 4-bet

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baudib1

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SS is a tard who keeps busting with any Ax/pair by shipping pre. BB is a 6-max nit (15/12, 3-bet of 4%). Given our ranges SS is essentially drawing dead so in practice I'm never folding here but I'm wondering

1. Do you assume that nits are positionally aware? My assumption is that a 15/12 in 6-max isn't a very imaginative player but knows his proper hand charts and respects UTG raise.
2. He must be aware as I am that the ss's range isn't very strong, so does that make him more likely to gamble with worse than top 4%? Or do nits not gamble in general.
3. What's your calling range?

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($31.68)
CO ($9.95)
BTN ($15.88)
SB ($49.77)
BB ($37.27)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is UTG K:spade: A:diamond:
Hero raises to $0.75, CO goes all-in $9.95, 2 folds, BB raises to $30.70, Hero goes all-in $31.68, BB calls $0.98
 
GotaLovePoke

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I assume he turned KK or AA ?

Probably not the best to answer this, but if I am that nit, I am thinking you would try to isolate with any marginal hand, and since your out of position, if the other players are good, any raise is going to reflect strenght.

now if I am that nit, with a good table image, I would definatly push with anything over AQs here, might even go lower depending on your table image.

I think too often your going to be beat in that situation to call. not counting any low PP has you crushed if the fish holds an ace.
 
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baudib1

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GotaLovePoke said:
I think too often your going to be beat in that situation to call. not counting any low PP has you crushed if the fish holds an ace.
Click to expand...

Do you see the size of the pot? We don't have to be ahead to call.
 
GotaLovePoke

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Right, but your basicaly getting what 2.2 to 1 ? versus 3 players including 1 super nit who shoved? Im not saying if the fish had a side pot with you, but he does not.

Like I said though, I might be wrong or misplaced to answer.
 
brank

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First off, what your table image?

If you are playing fairly LAG I think their range is generally gonna be 99+ and AQ+. They want to be HU against the tard so they are trying to iso.

If you're a tight positionally aware player and you think they know this then their range could be something like QQ+, AK.

I guess you just have to have the same range as the BB to make it a decent call with the dead money in the pot.
 
GotaLovePoke

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Prety much my opinion, often enough if hes very tight youll be behind and its a bad call.
 
cjatud2012

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Yay for Pokerstove!

So we need ~42% equity here against the two ranges for this to be profitable. Obviously it's hard to peg down the two ranges, the short stacker is probably pretty wide, but the 4-bettor is probably pretty narrow. Let's have some fun with it:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.967% 14.03% 09.94% 5039718648 3570413762.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 32.256% 30.89% 01.37% 11096007408 491735216.00 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 43.777% 34.27% 09.50% 12312912708 3413933090.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


If you throw some worse aces and broadway in there from the short stacker...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.552% 15.05% 11.51% 7612701 5822009.67 { AKo }
Hand 1: 25.531% 24.42% 01.11% 12355771 562750.67 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A2o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 47.917% 36.74% 11.18% 18587880 5657523.67 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

So we're still significantly behind. Even if BB is shoving 99+, AQ+ we're still behind, so I think this is a fold.
 
WVHillbilly

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Nits don't adjust. He has QQ+/AK. Fold.
 
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baudib1

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cjatud2012 said:
Yay for Pokerstove!

So we need ~42% equity here against the two ranges for this to be profitable. Obviously it's hard to peg down the two ranges, the short stacker is probably pretty wide, but the 4-bettor is probably pretty narrow. Let's have some fun with it:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.967% 14.03% 09.94% 5039718648 3570413762.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 32.256% 30.89% 01.37% 11096007408 491735216.00 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 43.777% 34.27% 09.50% 12312912708 3413933090.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }


If you throw some worse aces and broadway in there from the short stacker...

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 26.552% 15.05% 11.51% 7612701 5822009.67 { AKo }
Hand 1: 25.531% 24.42% 01.11% 12355771 562750.67 { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QJs, A2o+, KJo+, QJo }
Hand 2: 47.917% 36.74% 11.18% 18587880 5657523.67 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

So we're still significantly behind. Even if BB is shoving 99+, AQ+ we're still behind, so I think this is a fold.
Click to expand...

No one in 6-max has a stack off range against a shortstack as tight as QQ+/AK. But I think it's close. TT is a clear fold.

I think a normal tight 6-max player's stack-off range is something like this
616,429,440 games 0.687 secs 897,277,205 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.819% 28.08% 14.74% 173097708 90852480.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 57.181% 42.44% 14.74% 261626772 90852480.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }

as a default but you'll see 99-TT/AQo quite a bit.
 
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baudib1

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also can someone move this to the HA section, i screwed up.
 
WVHillbilly

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baudib1 said:
I think you have a reasonable point about nits, what do you think he's doing with 88-TT type hands?
Click to expand...

At FR a nit would cuss a little and fold. At 6-max they might shove TT but I'm not 100% sure on that.
 
cjatud2012

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baudib1 said:
No one in 6-max has a stack off range against a shortstack as tight as QQ+/AK. But I think it's close. TT is a clear fold.

I think a normal tight 6-max player's stack-off range is something like this
616,429,440 games 0.687 secs 897,277,205 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.819% 28.08% 14.74% 173097708 90852480.00 { AKo }
Hand 1: 57.181% 42.44% 14.74% 261626772 90852480.00 { JJ+, AQs+, AKo }

as a default but you'll see 99-TT/AQo quite a bit.
Click to expand...

If we were heads-up that'd be fine, but we're not, even with 99+ and AQ+ we only have ~36% equity, even if the short stacker was super wide.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
600,000 trials (Randomized)
AKo 36.24% (183,742 wins, 68,597 ties)
100% 22.96% (135,246 wins, 6,192 ties)
99-AA, AQ, AK 40.79% (211,666 wins, 67,348 ties)
 
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baudib1

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Fair enough, I was only calculating my equity vs. his range cuz I basically counted the ss as dead money; shouldn't we count our equity for the sidepot? His 3-bet% isn't high but it's wide enough to include 99-TT/AQ type hands, I'm not sure he's stacking all of that here.

i guess with only 3 bbs in it should be a fold

the interesting thing imo is that if the action went the other way:

SS opens UTG to 3bb

I 3-bet to 10 BBs

BB shoves

I think I'd be more inclined to fold because SS isn't already stacked in and the action appears scarier.
 
cjatud2012

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baudib1 said:
Fair enough, I was only calculating my equity vs. his range cuz I basically counted the ss as dead money; shouldn't we count our equity for the sidepot?

i guess with only 3 bbs in it should be a fold

the interesting thing imo is that if the action went the other way:

SS opens UTG to 3bb

I 3-bet to 10 BBs

BB shoves

I think I'd be more inclined to fold because SS isn't already stacked in and the action appears scarier.
Click to expand...

oh that makes sense, I didn't think of that. I don't know how that would affect our odds, etc.
 
brank

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First off, ya, I forgot to add the tard when I was figuring out a calling range.

What about your image though. I mean if you are an unknown or another 6 max nit his range is for sure QQ+,AK. If you are looser then I think 99+, AQ is totally possible in a 5 handed game. He wants to play the hand with the tard HU amiwrong? Seriously, I dont know.

Ive just finished my first 10k hands of 6 max so this is a very interesting/applicable topic for me.
 
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baudib1

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I think this guy views me as a lunatic but I'm not sure, I was playing tighter than usual at this point on this specific table.
 
cjatud2012

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even if he does he can view us as aggressive how much can he really do, since we already have a player all-in?

Seriously I don't know, someone tell me lol.
 
WVHillbilly

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Remember nits don't adjust so it really doesn't matter what he thinks of you. They just never open up their ranges. I mean think about it, how often do you have a nit in the blinds who folds every time you steal and then finally 3bets, you get in in with AQ because you think he's adjusting and he shows QQ+/AK. EVERY ****ING TIME. Nits ALWAYS have it.
 
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baudib1

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WVHillbilly said:
Remember nits don't adjust so it really doesn't matter what he thinks of you. They just never open up their ranges. I mean think about it, how often do you have a nit in the blinds who folds every time you steal and then finally 3bets, you get in in with AQ because you think he's adjusting and he shows QQ+/AK. EVERY ****ING TIME. Nits ALWAYS have it.
Click to expand...

This is really sound advice tbh, I try to remind myself this a lot. I was telling myself, "He might have AA here but I don't think I can fold."

I got lucky in this hand to run into the bottom of his range and scoop with 40% equity.


Flop: 9:club: 7:diamond: 2:heart: ($73.41, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: A:club: ($73.41, 3 players, 2 all-in)

River: 9:spade: ($73.41, 3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $73.41
CO shows
10:spade: A:heart:
BB shows
10:club: 10:heart:
Hero shows
K:spade: A:diamond:

Hero wins $70.41 (net +$38.73)

CO lost $9.95
BB lost $31.68
 
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