6max 100nl tough pf spot

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feitr

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pokerstars Game #20079567086: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/09/01 - 21:37:47 (ET)
Table 'Podarkes II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: ZngeLDay[9] ($118.95 in chips)
Seat 2: Black_Jon ($209.45 in chips)
Seat 3: deZZZed ($134.80 in chips)
Seat 4: MqiNRo ($53.60 in chips)
Seat 5: feitr ($99.50 in chips)
Seat 6: mbeezy02 ($118.35 in chips)
MqiNRo: posts small blind $0.50
feitr: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to feitr [Qc Qh]
mbeezy02: folds
ZngeLDay[9]: folds
Black_Jon: raises $3 to $4
deZZZed: raises $10 to $14
MqiNRo: folds
feitr: ???

dezz is 16/15 ATS of 30% and 11% 3B over a small sample of 100 hands.
the original raiser is like 24/20 or something so i never ever expect him to have a hand.

Anyways so what is our move.
 
PokerDave

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If you've got a good read on either of them for aces or kings you can fold, but it sounds like a call, and then a big bet on the flop if theres no king or ace. But a big thing here is, you only have your blind invested, so you don't have any voluntary money invested in the pot. So you could get away from it.
 
zachvac

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eww, this kinda sucks. Jon's raising such a wide range and assuming dezz knows this he could be 3-betting wide. If we flat we have to play this pot out of position and will have a hard time controlling the pot. Because of the 11% 3-bet and the fact that it will be a lot higher against such a lag in the CO I'd probably just 4-bet here and get it in. The question is though do you 4-bet smallish or just shove? I think I like a shove here, just because it's likely to get AK to fold instead of letting it push and thinking it may have fold equity. AK could easily still call here, but I just think this is a situation where we want to get it in and shoving here's best. What we don't want is getting about half our stack in and then having an A or K flop and have to play it oop. It almost never ends well, since we can't control the pot and our best hope would be to check it down. So I'd just shove here I think, just such a wide range here.
 
zachvac

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and PLEASE CONVERT YOUR HAND HISTORIES. You do not want these people googling their names and finding these.
 
c9h13no3

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We can't fold against an 11% 3-bettor. I P000000SH (or at least 4-bet). Calling and check/shoving any flop is, um, risky.

Btw Zach, no one folds AK in 6max.
 
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feitr

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my thinking was as follows (and i used basically my entire time bank trying to decide what to do).

black jon is opening super wide (ats is like 40 i think) and dezz is also really active from the button and 11% 3 bet is obviously high. The problem is that over 100 hands 11% 3 bet almost means nothing, but you can't exactly go on anything but what you have (if i had 500 hands on dezz and he still had 11% 3 bet then this is an easy decision i think). Plus 16/15 is really tight for 6 max, so even tho villain opens up alot in lp, i'd be much happier if villain was 22/20 or something. Anyways, so dezz knows jon is opening wide and is probably 3 betting quite wide here w/ position and alot of fold equity. so qq is a very strong hand in this situation.

folding is a possibility i guess if for no other reason than getting away from an awkward situation for only $1. i don't think flatting is a possibility, as i'm still pretty much getting stacked by aa/kk on most boards due to the fact i can't possibly control the pot size, and i'm probably going to have to lay down when the flop comes a/k even if villain has tt/jj or a s/c or air or whatever. if i 4 bet, i'm committed because i'm given too good odds to fold even vs a qq+ ak range once i make it $35 or whatever.

It is probably a pretty marginal situation anyways. If i 4 bet and villain shoves, well i'm in bad shape but i can't fold. If i fold i think i lose out on a +EV situation, and if i flat i have an almost impossible hand to try and play, and am still probably getting stacked by the hands that are ahead pf.
 
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feitr

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If you've got a good read on either of them for aces or kings you can fold, but it sounds like a call, and then a big bet on the flop if theres no king or ace. But a big thing here is, you only have your blind invested, so you don't have any voluntary money invested in the pot. So you could get away from it.

yea sure i *could* get away from it, but most of the time i'd expect dezz to be 3 betting wide enough here that i get a fold preflop and the rest of the time i'm well and truly priced in. I certainly don't see why 99+ isn't 3 betting here with position vs somebody opening over a third of his range and ak and maybe aq as well. + i'm sure the odd occasion there will be air or a s/c or something, since i have no doubt blackjon would be folding this almost always.

Anyways poker completely hates me right now, so i just want to make sure spots like this aren't hugely leaky. i can't even count the number of times in the last few days that i've been stacked with AA/KK on a 237 board + fd by a set. I can't even isolate a 50/2/0.5 fish w/ ak and be ahead on a flop of a34 at the moment.
 
ChuckTs

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Yeah I'm happy getting it in here. The 3bettor is fairly tight, but he'll definitely open up vs a 24/20. Very happy stacking here - I 4bet and call a shove.
 
Chris_TC

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Sir, this is not a tough spot at all. It's a 4-bet, pretty much every single time. I'd never call, and I'd only fold versus a ~10/4 or something.
With QQ, you don't even need to think about ranges. Raise and get it in.
 
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you could actually put the second raiser on a worse hand than queens if he is as observant as you. Due to the fact that the first raiser almost never has a hand by what you say, you could put the second raiser on a decent but not great hand just trying to isolate. I think your best play would be a cold call here and try and trap them both in the pot and hope for a jack hi flop and play your gut from their. This works for two reasons, if the first raiser is on garbage he will probably fold or just cold call also and if the second raiser does have a hand you still have the opportunity to out flop him, or outplay him postflop. And if he has a middle pair like 99 or 10 10 you might be able to take him for a large pot if the flop comes super low. I think anyone could argue a reraise a fold or a call here but this is just my oppinion on the information you have given me.
 
zachvac

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Yeah I'm happy getting it in here. The 3bettor is fairly tight, but he'll definitely open up vs a 24/20. Very happy stacking here - I 4bet and call a shove.

Sir, this is not a tough spot at all. It's a 4-bet, pretty much every single time. I'd never call, and I'd only fold versus a ~10/4 or something.
With QQ, you don't even need to think about ranges. Raise and get it in.

What do you two think about a 4-bet shove here?
 
ChuckTs

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Looks ok, but we want AK/AQs and JJ- to shove on us light. Shoving ourselves gives him an easier fold. Especially if I've done some light 4betting in the past I'll just make a small 4bet here instead.
 
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feitr

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Sir, this is not a tough spot at all. It's a 4-bet, pretty much every single time. I'd never call, and I'd only fold versus a ~10/4 or something.
With QQ, you don't even need to think about ranges. Raise and get it in.

it is a tough spot because i am getting stacked by shit like this time and time and time and time and time again as of late. So i'm just wanting to make sure what i'm doing is fine and that i'm simply second guessing myself because of how badly i'm running.

anyways as i'm sure everybody can figure out, i 4 bet to $36, button shoved w/ aa and i called and didn't improve.

@ zach

i prefer 4 bet vs shove. By shoving we polarize villain's range even further towards hands that beat us...i don't know about you but i certainly don't want villain ever folding ak here, since it is the only hand other than perhaps jj if villain really thinks i'm making a move that i fare well against.

But tbh, i would expect to be up against alot worse range than that most of the time and manage to pick this up preflop...
 
zachvac

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Are you guys crazy? wtf are you talking about "we want AK shoving on us"? We are basically flipping with them and with the dead money in the pot they get odds to stack. Once they have 3-bet, we want AK folding. Now if we can get AQ to shove on us, then it's definitely a plus. But we want AK folding here rather than stacking.
 
c9h13no3

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I think shoving makes our hand look more like AK, and gets smaller pairs like TT/JJ more interested in calling. Prolly 6 in one, half dozen in the other...
 
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feitr

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same villain, so it shows he certainly is capable of pretty spewy plays and so yea regardless of whether or not the sample was only over 100 hands it was just unlucky in the first hand that completely had the top of his range. NAMES BLANKED SO AS NOT TO PISS OFF ZACH

PokerStars Game #20101774942: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2008/09/02 19:40:25 ET
Table 'Leo Minor' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ****** ($24.65 in chips)
Seat 2: feitr ($105.15 in chips)
Seat 5: ***** ($84.55 in chips)
Seat 6: ***** ($176.10 in chips)
*****: posts small blind $0.50
*****: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to feitr [As Ac]
*****: folds
***** has returned
feitr: raises $2.50 to $3.50
*****: folds
*****: raises $8.50 to $12
*****: raises $22 to $34
*****: raises $142.10 to $176.10 and is all-in
*****: calls $71.15 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($70.95) returned to *****
*** FLOP *** [Th 5h 9s]
*** TURN *** [Th 5h 9s] [3c]
*** RIVER *** [Th 5h 9s 3c] [9h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
*****: shows [7c 7h] (two pair, Nines and Sevens)
feitr: shows [As Ac] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
feitr collected $208.80 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $210.80 | Rake $2
Board [Th 5h 9s 3c 9h]
Seat 1: ***** folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: feitr (button) showed [As Ac] and won ($208.80) with two pair, Aces and Nines
Seat 5: ***** (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: ***** (big blind) showed [7c 7h] and lost with two pair, Nines and Sevens

I've just been a little bit shell shocked as of late, because i went through a period where i was playing pretty bad in 6 max, and once i moreorless fixed those leaks i just started to run so bad so really have been second guessing some of my plays i think.
 
Chris_TC

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So i'm just wanting to make sure what i'm doing is fine and that i'm simply second guessing myself because of how badly i'm running.
What you're doing is fine :)

What do you two think about a 4-bet shove here?
I like it a lot actually because cold 4-bet bluffs are so rare. Basically, your cold 4-bet will get A TON of credit. So shoving might be the best way to look as weak as possible, and you may get called by weaker pair.
If you DO sometimes cold 4-bet bluff or at least 4-bet with a certain frequency, making a normal raise is the preferred move.
 
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feitr

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I think shoving makes our hand look more like AK, and gets smaller pairs like TT/JJ more interested in calling. Prolly 6 in one, half dozen in the other...

yea i don't disagree with this. alot of thinking players will interpret a huge 4 bet or overbet shove as ak, so making the same move with aa or whatever will probably occasionally induce a call from a smaller pair happy to flip w/ ak.

@ zach

well lets do the equity then. qq vs ak (both s00ted and non) is 56:44 equity. if ak folds to a shove, we make a profit of $19.50. If ak calls we make an average of (0.56 x $200.50)-$99.5=$12.78. So yea, you are right it would be better for us if ak folds. But shoving probably means we never get action from lower pps (unless they are sold on us having ak) which as you can certainly see in the second hand this villain is obviously happy to give us.

I do agree with both you and chris and c9 tho...my 4 bets in both hands are very strong with little fold equity. In the first hand idk that is just what i decided, but i do like shoving in retrospect. In the second hand i actually 4 bet again mainly because of that first hand i had with him and because in this situation i think a small 4 bet looks more bluffing than a shove (i'm very active from the button and villain is very active from the blinds in 3B % at least...so i'm capable of a 4 bet bluff here vs some1 i have a little history with. I also overshove in a squeeze situation with aks so this is a good way to balance.
 
zachvac

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yea i don't disagree with this. alot of thinking players will interpret a huge 4 bet or overbet shove as ak, so making the same move with aa or whatever will probably occasionally induce a call from a smaller pair happy to flip w/ ak.

@ zach

well lets do the equity then. qq vs ak (both s00ted and non) is 56:44 equity. if ak folds to a shove, we make a profit of $19.50. If ak calls we make an average of (0.56 x $200.50)-$99.5=$12.78. So yea, you are right it would be better for us if ak folds. But shoving probably means we never get action from lower pps (unless they are sold on us having ak) which as you can certainly see in the second hand this villain is obviously happy to give us.

Agreed, but I don't see JJ or lower shoving on a 4-bet. On the other hand as Chris said 4-bet shoving may get JJ to call just because we look a lot like AK (I personally do this with AK most of the time since it sucks to have 1/3 of your stack in with a hand you think is ahead of his range with a hand that plays best seeing all 5 cards).
 
zachvac

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NAMES BLANKED SO AS NOT TO PISS OFF ZACH

lol, easiest way is to just use a hand converter. I usually use leggopoker's as I liked them the best, but word on the street is that CC's converter has received an upgrade and is a bit better. Just anything that makes opponents anonymous. Then if it's a known reg you can say like "villain is xxBlack_Jonxx" for the purpose of reads.
 
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feitr

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Agreed, but I don't see JJ or lower shoving on a 4-bet. On the other hand as Chris said 4-bet shoving may get JJ to call just because we look a lot like AK (I personally do this with AK most of the time since it sucks to have 1/3 of your stack in with a hand you think is ahead of his range with a hand that plays best seeing all 5 cards).

yea i agree (although villain obviously can here). i remember watching a stox video where leatherass said something about when somebody put int a huge 4 bet that he would have called with any pair because he was so sure that that it was ak. obviously if you can make the same play with aa it will be very +ev for you against thinking players.

And yea, i also shove with AK in similar situations, so it is a good way to balance ranges by doing it with stronger hands, plus you might very well get looked up lighter as it does look like something that ak would be more inclined to do. I way overbet shoved AA a little while ago and got looked up by AKo, so yea you never know. Personally i do see a cold 4 bet as much stronger, unless it is vs somebody that is capable of 4 bet bluffing (so wanting to be able to get away from the hand if need be) but i don't think you see much 4 bet bluffing in nl100 (tho i do it sometiems so idk). If ever there is a place for 4 bet bluffing in nl100 it is steal vs blinds tho obviously, but i still doubt that facdtors much into ppl's thinking here.
 
zachvac

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Should have mentioned for range balancing I'll also do it with KK or QQ if getting it in light (as in this example). So a smaller 4-bet is almost always a bluff or AA. Not sure if that's exploitable, but I don't light 4-bet a ton, and it would take a ton of hands for anyone to realize this was my range. Although next hand against you I just may shove AA just because of this thread. Or maybe I won't because you'll think I would because of this thread. muahahahahaha :)
 
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feitr

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the whole 4 bet vs shoving side topic has an interesting point tho, especially in relation to what you just said about multilevel thinking.

I think you are right in that a 4 bet is either complete air or is KK+ (or maybe qq+). In any case, i don't think it is EVER AK. A 4-bet shove might be anywhere from TT+ AQ+ if really light, but i think that a shove is very very rarely air. So one move you have a very polarized range...either complete monster or nothing and in the other you have a wider range.

So then i think it just comes down to on what level villain is thinking. I like shoving in the first hand now, because CO's range is wide, button knows this so button's range is probably wide and it is fairly reasonable to assume that button knows i know that CO's range is wide and therefore I know that button's range is wide, and so my shoving range is probably somewhat wide (tho i really don't think there was anywhere near enough history to justify this last part...that said you don't need a long history to realise when range's have opened up with aggressive, competent players...obvious isolating from the button or squeezing attempts, etc.).
Anyways, since QQ is somewhat near the higher part of my range, shoving might just get us looked up by slightly worse, especially considering that i am oop so shoving looks exactly like me having ak, thinking i'm ahead of villain's ranges, but having no desire to try and have to play postflop oop on a flop that may compeltely miss me.

In the second hand i like a 4 bet, because villain probably thinks he has some FE here with it being a button steal (where my range is very wide) and a blind resteal (which is probably still somewhat wide for him) so villain might think somebody with my stats might try a 4 bet bluff and so villain might spew out some chips with a dumb play.

Anyways this is basically nonsense rambling, but i just think it is an interesting topic.
 
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