$600 NLHE Full Ring: folding QQ

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kanselau

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No reads on villain , he has came to the table and bought in for maximum , has raised 3/5 hands since he got there . I know from discussion that he was a dealer at the casino some time ago.
We have $700 stack and villain has about $500.
Action pre : limp MD position, limp CO, BTN (villain) raises to $35 , we have QQ in the SB , and raise to $110. Folds around to BTN who re raisaes to $260.
What range can we put villain on ? call or fold
 
fletchdad

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Any idea what range he is putting you on?

Its shove or fold IMO.

Calling is commiting and you will be sick if A-K hits and you have to shove then...
 
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kanselau

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Any idea what range he is putting you on?

Its shove or fold IMO.

Calling is commiting and you will be sick if A-K hits and you have to shove then...
well hes only been at the table for 5 hands and no history with this player .
I havent played a hand since he sat down and im reraising him out of the SB , so im guessing he must give me some credit ( AQ+ , JJ+ ) min i should think .
Hes comiting half of his stack , so yea agreed shove or fold .
 
fletchdad

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Since he was a dealer, he probably has an isea.
well hes only been at the table for 5 hands and no history with this player .
I havent played a hand since he sat down and im reraising him out of the SB , so im guessing he must give me some credit ( AQ+ , JJ+ ) min i should think .
Hes comiting half of his stack , so yea agreed shove or fold .

OK, I am out of my limit here but...

He is punishing limpers. He thinks you must know that (since its your first hand played since he sat) Your range is wider than AQ+ JJ+ to him???

I dont really know. Maybe he is really getting good hands or maybe he just has one now,but cant his range have AA.KK < AK, JJ and other hands you are ahead of?

Cant you, in his eyes, be making a stand and saying "dont fk with my blinds" with a wider range? Cant he be saying "No, you DONT have as much FE vs ne?"
 
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kanselau

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Since he was a dealer, he probably has an isea.

OK, I am out of my limit here but...

He is punishing limpers. He thinks you must know that (since its your first hand played since he sat) Your range is wider than AQ+ JJ+ to him???

I dont really know. Maybe he is really getting good hands or maybe he just has one now,but cant his range have AA.KK < AK, JJ and other hands you are ahead of?

Cant you, in his eyes, be making a stand and saying "dont fk with my blinds" with a wider range? Cant he be saying "No, you DONT have as much FE vs ne?"
hes a ex dealer so yea presuming he has a clue , cant see him stacking off with anything lower than JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ , we are preety much racing against this range.
Table is overall average so might find a better spot ?
 
duggs

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but dead money, gii
 
fletchdad

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yea, his stacking range is gonna be tight. But is his stacking range the majority of his range here?

And, yea dead money.

But as I said, out of my limits here
 
Ducky7

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Im shoving, he's probably iso'ing super wide and might think you are taking advantage of that and min 4bs to get a ton of fold, i expect to get a lot of folds when we shove here and we pick up all that dead money, also when we do get called we a vs AK a lot of the time and he might do this with JJ/TT
 
aa88wildbill

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I would at least called, if not pushed. I mean after all, you are there to win money. It seems to me the odds were in your favor! You have to be willing to risk money, in order to win money.
 
frozensprx

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so basically if he is a good thinking player he understands that you might be reraising his attempt to isolate the limpers, so that means you would 3bet with a somewhat wider range from SB, so it means that he could be 4betting with a somewhat wider range. Either way, If it was me I would ship it because you have fold equity against AK and and you can still suckout if he has aces or kings.
 
fletchdad

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What did you do? If ya feel like telling....
 
MisterLongFace

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this is a shove all in. he does not have AA or KK or AK for that matter. you are ahead and possibly dominant.
 
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$390 into what would be a final pot of $1,026 means you need >39% hand equity v's his range.

QQ v's {KK+, AK} = 39.86%

Shove.
 
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kanselau

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thanks everyone for your replys , you all have some good points , im suprised nobody has said fold though , i will post outcome in a few days , will see if i get any replys from a few more players.
a point i would also like to raise here is that live poker is alot more passive , and tighter overall than internet at relative stakes. Especially at the casino i play.
when playing on the net at say 1/2 or even 50c/$1 stakes you raley see an orbit where someone hasnt 3bet , especialy when a player seems to open alot. Internet players are quick to adjust and start 3betting wide.
Live poker is somewhat different and 3bets represent more streanght , 4bets usaually are the nuts.
This is why im questioning the qqs here , i think if I was playing this hand on the net I would snap call with the information at hand.
How many of you guys play live?
 
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OMGITSOVER9K

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if we fold QQ to a 4bet IP we're super exploitable

is this 600nl or 400nl?
 
duggs

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all of us. you still cant remove AK from his range unless you specifically know he limp/calls it
 
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kanselau

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if we fold QQ to a 4bet IP we're super exploitable

is this 600nl or 400nl?
actually 500nl , so you think it was a positional bet by the 4 bettor ? Do you think we have fold equity with a shove ?
 
duggs

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and he has JJ/1010 some of the time
 
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kanselau

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all of us. you still cant remove AK from his range unless you specifically know he limp/calls it
??? why would we remove AK from his range ? unless he limp/calls it ? how is this relevant to this example
 
duggs

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you cant fold when he has AK in his range
i gave an example of a read that would allow us to remove it
 
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kanselau

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you cant fold when he has AK in his range
i gave an example of a read that would allow us to remove it
ah thanks for clearing that up . if he habitually limps with AK then we can remove from his range , i see
 
MisterLongFace

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This is based on?

based on the OP's description of how villian has played since he got to the table. The chances that he has AA, KK or AK or exactly the same as what the chances are that anyone would get dealt that on any particular hand, in other words, very slim. To me, this scenario OP is describing is an easy read, the guy is there to gamble, he is reraising to isolate and increase his own chances of winning, whatever they may be from his perspective. if he has one of the monster hands, it is very bad luck. if he has AK, i would hate to see that hand even tho the money isnt going in bad, but that is unlikely too, so take advantage and shove in, force them to possibly give up when they realize how strong you are and you get it for free, but really we want a call.
edit: just remembered villian has 500and reraised to 260 no obv hes nevergoing to fold here, and thats what we want
 
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RodneyC86

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based on the OP's description of how villian has played since he got to the table. The chances that he has AA, KK or AK or exactly the same as what the chances are that anyone would get dealt that on any particular hand, in other words, very slim. To me, this scenario OP is describing is an easy read, the guy is there to gamble, he is reraising to isolate and increase his own chances of winning, whatever they may be from his perspective. if he has one of the monster hands, it is very bad luck. if he has AK, i would hate to see that hand even tho the money isnt going in bad, but that is unlikely too, so take advantage and shove in, force them to possibly give up when they realize how strong you are and you get it for free, but really we want a call.
edit: just remembered villian has 500and reraised to 260 no obv hes nevergoing to fold here, and thats what we want

Dude is a former dealer, he may not be totally clueless, and his sizing seems to suggest that.
 
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