$600 NLHE Full Ring: 2/5 Live, Facing large flop donk bet in 4 way pot

V is middle aged guy who has only been at the table about an hour. Loves to see flops. Will open limp / call most raises. Hasn't 3 bet yet pre and hasn't raised much on his own pre. Much more aggressive and sticky post flop but hasn't shown down many hands.

Hero is attempting to play TAG but has been largely card dead. Not limping or calling much. But if Vs are paying attention, the very first hand we opened in position and cbet a flush draw flop. We got called and missed so I'm not sure how Vs are interpreting our low stats. Probably VPIP/PFR/3b of 20/15/5 ish.

OTTH:
1 limp and Hero ($600 effective) looks down at from UTG+1, we raise to $25, BU calls, V (covers but not by much) calls from SB, UTG limp / calls.

Flop (~$100 after rake):
Verify dynamic flop in a 4 way pot that hits Vs calling ranges but we are also fairly high up in our range. V1 donk leads for $70 (this bet feels designed to generate folds, this V is not scared money so I'm removing most sets from his range), UTG folds, first decision point is here. Very wet board and V is very wide pre so I'm not automatically giving him 78 or a set. I think he mostly has flush draws, 8x, straight draws, and combo draws. Possibly 99/TT that didn't 3 bet against a nitty looking EP open from Hero. Also we don't want BU to come along if we flat so I decide a raise here is best. Even against 78 (top of Vs estimated range) we have 25% equity when behind. We are slightly behind but basically flipping against and slightly ahead of the other A high flush draws. Would be nicer if V had some weak Q or J high flush draw. Hero raises to $270 with a little over $300 behind (intention is to charge draws and middling hands and get it in if raised). BU folds, V snap shoves. Hero?

When V snap 3 bet shoves I'm taking out some straight draws but he still has 78 and a bunch of flush and combo draws. Are we ever folding here? Thoughts on flop raise and line in general welcome.

I don't see you need to raise with QQ on this flop. The nutted hands you could have probably are 88 and 77 but you can have a lot of overpairs, two high cards+ flush draw, nut flush draws that can continue (and need some strong calling range) to play IP relative to SB.

As played, I would remove some weaker straight draws from villain range given your action and put him on combo draws and 99-AA, so need to call the 3bet shove. Don't like this spot in general

quant1986 said:

I don't see you need to raise with QQ on this flop. The nutted hands you could have probably are 88 and 77 but you can have a lot of overpairs, two high cards+ flush draw, nut flush draws that can continue (and need some strong calling range) to play IP relative to SB.

As played, I would remove some weaker straight draws from villain range given your action and put him on combo draws and 99-AA, so need to call the 3bet shove. Don't like this spot in general

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Thanks, fair point. The largest part of the raise flop influence was the LAG on the BTN. If we flat we are giving all his draws a great price and then are still three ways to the turn, in between two action players, and there are a lot of bad turn cards where we will want to give up 3 ways when straights, flushes, overcards, or two pair can hit. If it was heads up I would agree that flatting is better to keep V wide and continue to induce but flatting seemed bad with action left behind. Also doubt V is flatting pre flop OOP with AA/KK much once LAG calls the BTN. Maybe he traps heads up but he doesn't want to go 4+ ways with AA/KK OOP.

The story would be much better with a Qh in your hand. Basically you are committed to the boat with your 3-bet on the flop. You have many hands that you win now, but with enough equity for the villain.
You are only slightly behind some draw combos like 5h-6h; 9h-Th and Ah-7h.
As for the upper range, we have doubles like 7-8 up to 9 possible combos + 3 possible combos of set of 3.
Overpairs removed from the preflop and the rest are color projects of hearts.
As for these combinations, you dominate in a wide range of Ah-xh and Qh-xh.
In this situation, you can fold if you play very deep (300 bb or more), but if you put half of your pile, I think you should cross your fingers and reach the river.
Regards.

I like the analysis of the possible ranges but how well do you know the Villain? This is the one on SB, right? What's the range of a villain in such a vulnerable position?

You also said he rarely 3 bets pre and is a limp/call kind of player. That is a sub-optimal player for value extracting purposes on his end, but in the process does our interpretation of his range not need to be adjusted accordingly? I would put him on sets here or possibly a slow-played AA or KK. Maybe once in a blue moon you would both have QQ but his shove is suggesting he is pretty confident here.

I don't think we can fold to the $70 donk bet. I agree calling is inviting a larger multi-way pot, but may still allow us to get away from a worse situation on the turn. Another option would maybe be a smaller raise?

Once you're in it for half your stack, you are hoping for a flip but really.. what cards do you expect to see when you call here over the long term from the small blind? Your villain just doesn't sound like the gambling type.

If you are going to raise the flop, you need to expect, that he will either fold or jam, when you push the pot past the point of commitment for both of you by putting in half your stack. It makes no sense for him to call you out of position and then check-fold the turn with a half potter back. So he might as well just get it in now, if he is going to go with his hand. If you are good against his stack-off range, then raise, get it in, and maybe ask him, if he wants to run it twice. And if you are not good against his stack-off range, then just call and look to possibly fold later to further aggression.

gustav197poker said:

The story would be much better with a Qh in your hand. Basically you are committed to the boat with your 3-bet on the flop. You have many hands that you win now, but with enough equity for the villain.
You are only slightly behind some draw combos like 5h-6h; 9h-Th and Ah-7h.
As for the upper range, we have doubles like 7-8 up to 9 possible combos + 3 possible combos of set of 3.
Overpairs removed from the preflop and the rest are color projects of hearts.
As for these combinations, you dominate in a wide range of Ah-xh and Qh-xh.
In this situation, you can fold if you play very deep (300 bb or more), but if you put half of your pile, I think you should cross your fingers and reach the river.
Regards.

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True, the hand would be much easier to play if we had the . I was actually surprised how close equities ran vs Ahxh. In the moment I thought I was pushing at least a 10% edge there but actually I was flipping vs many of those combos. That has been the biggest lesson learned from this hand. Need to know my equities better. I thought it was more like 55/45. Also agree folding after the raise would be a huge mistake.

puzzlefish said:

I like the analysis of the possible ranges but how well do you know the Villain? This is the one on SB, right? What's the range of a villain in such a vulnerable position?

You also said he rarely 3 bets pre and is a limp/call kind of player. That is a sub-optimal player for value extracting purposes on his end, but in the process does our interpretation of his range not need to be adjusted accordingly? I would put him on sets here or possibly a slow-played AA or KK. Maybe once in a blue moon you would both have QQ but his shove is suggesting he is pretty confident here.

I don't think we can fold to the $70 donk bet. I agree calling is inviting a larger multi-way pot, but may still allow us to get away from a worse situation on the turn. Another option would maybe be a smaller raise?

Once you're in it for half your stack, you are hoping for a flip but really.. what cards do you expect to see when you call here over the long term from the small blind? Your villain just doesn't sound like the gambling type.

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Good point. Yes, main V is the SB. I didn't know V that well. I interpreted his play the opposite way though. His stats were something like 45/20/0 but it was only about 90 - 120 mins of play. What I took this to mean (coupled with his post flop aggression) was that he didn't mind calling from behind to gamble as he thought he could make up for it with post flop aggression. In the hands he did show down I did not see him slow play. If he had value he was betting it. That's not to say it's impossible for him to flat KK+ from the SB OOP in a multiway pot but I thought it was extremely unlikely. I really don't like making a smaller flop raise since we aren't closing the action and we are pricing in the hands that he is most likely to hold. V can also still 3 bet and then we may have to fold. I thought the choices were flat or commit, and I went with the latter in part to iso. I expect him to jam over our raise with 2 pair+ and all of his flush draws. I think he lets most of the spaz hands, and some of the straight draws with no hearts go. Maybe also folds out 99-TT. He may get sticky with JJ. I expect him to 3 bet QQ+ and AK pre.

fundiver199 said:

If you are going to raise the flop, you need to expect, that he will either fold or jam, when you push the pot past the point of commitment for both of you by putting in half your stack. It makes no sense for him to call you out of position and then check-fold the turn with a half potter back. So he might as well just get it in now, if he is going to go with his hand. If you are good against his stack-off range, then raise, get it in, and maybe ask him, if he wants to run it twice. And if you are not good against his stack-off range, then just call and look to possibly fold later to further aggression.

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You're absolutely right but it's always nice for Vs to make mistakes by calling this flop raise. Given his super wide limp / call pre range I thought he had enough flush draws to profitably stack off vs his continuing range but obviously we can run into 78 a lot and some occasional sets. I think I was a little too eager to get stacks in in this case. I thought if I flatted I would be overfolding a lot of turns, especially if it went 3 ways. I really don't want to see any heart, A, K, 6, 8, or J. That's literally like fading half the deck. The largest mistake I made was thinking I was pushing a 10% edge vs the nut flush draw instead of the 4% edge I actually had vs that range. Against a Q high or lower flush draw I still like our line. Also, against a V this wide pre I think most of his flush draws fall into the Q high or lower range so maybe it's still ok. Either way, I think I need to be more willing to flat the flop against a wide range with some frequency and embrace the harder decisions while the pot is less bloated. If we do get a good turn card then the hand is super easy to play OTT.

Thanks all, any others?

Honestly, I think I'm probably 4 bet jamming there. Sometimes you'll be behind, but as you said in your post, you still have outs to the best hand. Having the Qh would be a nice addition, but I think folding there is far too exploitable.

Sidetracked said:

Honestly, I think I'm probably 4 bet jamming there. Sometimes you'll be behind, but as you said in your post, you still have outs to the best hand. Having the Qh would be a nice addition, but I think folding there is far too exploitable.

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Not sure I follow completely but it sounds like you're going with it. When V 3 bet jams we can either call or fold. So there were two decision points. Whether or not to raise flop, and whether or not to call the jam. No opportunity to 4 bet in this hand.