6-max, $25 NL JJ

Deep down I know the answer to this.
My mental state: I was really tired last night when this happened. I was also down about $3 at the time, and was on sort of a winning streak which I wanted desperately to keep alive.
I knew I'd be going to bed soon.

The opposition was pretty wild. (I love late night games)
wildsparks vp$ip ? I didn't jot it down. I'd guess 30%.
Biggulpsuh vp$ip 38% based on maybe 12-15 hands
DaveDiCosola vi$ip 73% based on maybe 12-15 hands

pokerstars Game #16280387080: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) -
2008/03/27 - 01:01:28 (ET)
Table 'Cyrene III' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Nasareject ($22.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Karl Marx V ($40.50 in chips)
Seat 3: SvgePenguin ($25 in chips)
Seat 4: DaveDiCosola ($13.45 in chips)
Seat 5: biggulpsuh ($8.40 in chips)
Seat 6: wildsparks ($34.70 in chips)
DaveDiCosola: posts small blind $0.10
biggulpsuh: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SvgePenguin [Jd Jc]
wildsparks: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Nasareject: folds
Karl Marx V: folds
SvgePenguin: raises $1 to $1.75
DaveDiCosola: calls $1.65
biggulpsuh: raises $6.65 to $8.40 and is all-in
wildsparks: folds
SvgePenguin: ???

VPIP isn't nearly as important as PFR here. Or rather the combination of VPIP and PFR. These guys could be loose-passive fish who have you crushed, or they could be maniacs and be crushed by your JJ.

While ~15 hands isn't enough to make assumptions, you can usually conclude that someone with that kind of vpip after that small of a sample is a fish, and against a %38vpip fish here we should probably be getting our money in happily. I shove to isolate vs davedicosola.

Don't you mean shove to isolate against biggulpsuh, the all-in guy ?

yep, worded that wrong.

I agree, shove here to isolate. This is a typical short stack play and I'd range it as KJ+, 99+

~15 hands isn't enough to make assumptions...[/quote]
I totally agree. But it's all I had to work with at the time. (I use GameTime+

ChuckTs said:

I shove to isolate vs davedicosola.

Click to expand...

I didn't expect that answer. That was my first reaction.

My thought was that with an UTG raiser (everyone but me was opening to $.75) gets a little extra respect.

I just assumed that the out-of-position call by the SB was stupidity based on plays I'd seen him make. If he had shoved, I'd have called in a heartbeat.

Then the BB shoved. Cripes! With all that action ahead of him I figure he has to expect that someone would look him up.

I wanted to call soooo badly. But since I knew I was in a calling mood I leaned towards an "I'm not going to tilt" conservative approach. And since they were only Jacks, and with all that action and no real knowledge of their play, I folded.

I'll post the results tomorrow.

"Only jacks" means nothing; look at your hand in terms of equity vs your opponents ranges. A fishy %30+ vpip player cold calling a 3-bet like that can mean all types of hands. The shortstack's push is a little worrisome, but usually when players are that short they aren't afraid to get their money in with 99, AQo and other marginal hands. I still think it's an isolation push here.

So you're saying I gave them too much credit? I can't argue with that, as I suspect that at times (and you're a bit better than I).

Part of my fold was that if they were as wild as they appeared to be, that I could wait for better opportunities to take their chips.

I'd have thought that, considering the action ahead of him, T/T would be his lowest pair, and maaaaaaybe A/Qs but definitely A/Ko. I guess I didn't consider that short stacks often can't see beyond the paint on their cards.

Well, technically it's tomorrow so here's the hand it its entirety... ChuckTs knows his stuff:

Dealt to SvgePenguin [Jd Jc]
wildsparks: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Nasareject: folds
Karl Marx V: folds
SvgePenguin: raises $1 to $1.75
DaveDiCosola: calls $1.65
biggulpsuh: raises $6.65 to $8.40 and is all-in
wildsparks: folds
SvgePenguin: folds
DaveDiCosola: calls $6.65
*** FLOP *** [6h 8h 4h]
*** TURN *** [6h 8h 4h] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [6h 8h 4h 7d] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DaveDiCosola: shows [Qd Kc] (a pair of Eights)
biggulpsuh: shows [Td Ah] (a pair of Eights - Ace kicker)
biggulpsuh collected $18.35 from pot

With this short of a stack I'm willing to get my money in with TT+/AQ+ at least full ring. I know 6max is much more aggressive and you can open your range up. You're against someone with a little over 30 BBs, but of course the fact that there's the guy to act behind is a bit troubling. Personally I think this could actually go either way, but I would lean towards calling. I know I've seen the results but I don't think that's biased me. I still say it wasn't a horrible fold, best case you're flipping (but with either dead money in the pot or 3-way) but the problem comes when the worst case comes up and you're against QQ+. So I'd say borderline, neither shoving nor folding would be a horrible play, but I do think I'd lean towards a shove here.

SavagePenguin said:

Part of my fold was that if they were as wild as they appeared to be, that I could wait for better opportunities to take their chips.

Click to expand...

This is a common misconception. In tournaments, 'waiting for a better spot' can often be the right thing to do as the main objective is usually survival, not the highest chip EV play.

In cash games however, we don't have that elimination factor, and any and all plays that will yield a positive return on average should be taken. If it's +EV, you do it (unless you're doing something for metagame, but that's a different issue). It may be closer to a -EV play here than if we were holding KK for example, but if it's +EV it should still be done.

Update: I just got off a short session. A similar situation came up where I had T/T.

I mumbled something like, "OK, ChuckTs, let's see if this your advice works."

With a 9 being the high card on the turn, I was really happy, but the river brought a 4th heart so I lost to an Ah/Qc's rivered flush. But it was still very much the right move and I'm happy with my play.

Thanks again for the advice, ChuckTs.