[5nl FR] flopped set vs 2 big stacks

eNTy

eNTy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Total posts
6,936
Chips
0
CO: 27/24/inf (34 hands)
SB: 56/6/2 (16 hands)

Not much info on them both,
SB remained pretty limpy during the rest of the session tho.

poker stars, $0.02/$0.05 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $13.44 (268.8 bb)
BB: $9.29 (185.8 bb)
UTG+1: $3.27 (65.4 bb)
MP1: $5.71 (114.2 bb)
Hero (MP2): $5 (100 bb)
MP3: $4.76 (95.2 bb)
CO: $10.18 (203.6 bb)
BTN: $9.13 (182.6 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with 7
club.gif
7
heart.gif

UTG+1 calls $0.05, MP1 folds, Hero raises to $0.25, MP3 folds, CO raises to $0.80, BTN folds, SB calls $0.78, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.55

Flop: ($2.50) 3
heart.gif
A
diamond.gif
7
diamond.gif
(3 players)
SB checks, Hero ???

When playing this I was inclined to check it.
My thinking was, that there was a pretty decent reraise from the CO and he would want to cbet this flop. Is this the wrong thinking ?
Do we take control and bet the flop hoping to get a call, maybe two, or even a reraise ?
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
2,516
Awards
1
Chips
0
I bet a dollar, looks like a steal bet. with an Ace on board they are either going to lose their minds or shut down imo so I think a half pot bet after a check is your best chance to get some serious action. If you let the turn come and a diamond hits against two opponents unless it is the 3 of diamonds you might be put in a ackward situation.
 
eNTy

eNTy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Total posts
6,936
Chips
0
I bet a dollar, looks like a steal bet. I think a half pot bet after a check is your best chance to get some serious action.

Wait so are you saying bet $1 on flop or check on flop and then bet half pot on turn ? I don't get ya..
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
2,516
Awards
1
Chips
0
Wait so are you saying bet $1 on flop or check on flop and then bet half pot on turn ? I don't get ya..
your bet is after the your first opponents check.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Don't call 3-bets preflop with small pairs, you're not getting set odds.

I like leading here. With the ace out there, one of the players will give you action, and you don't really need to worry about raising any street to get it in. I'd flip out about $1.75, bombing the turn if called obviously.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Total posts
7,594
Awards
1
Chips
3
Don't call 3-bets preflop with small pairs, you're not getting set odds.

I disagree. Don't you call if you think you can get 10x your investment back if you flop the set? Calling $.55 with and being able to get your $5 stack into the pot against a three-better *and* a caller would it profitable. At $5NL, people will stack with TPTK without thinking, so you could conceivably triple up.
Without the caller calling (and reads) calling might be questionable, but with that caller you have odds IMO.

I raise this every time. I'd probably make it $2 to get called by Ace/face hands. Then I'm shoving anything except an Ace on the turn.
 
Last edited:
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
but with that caller you have odds IMO.
We do not have a 5$ stack. We're putting an 55c into the pot, and we have $4.20 left in our stack for implied odds of 7.6:1. Additionally, in 3-bet pots the frequency of large pairs increases, and thus we are more likely to hit set over set and lose. Its unlikely to stack 2 players at once as well, so the additional player doesn't add to our implied odds all that much. And if the cold caller is calling with 88-TT, or a suited connector, he probably detracts from our implied odds some.

Long & short of it is that the 12:1 implied odds used doesn't take into account just the odds required of flopping a set. It includes the following things:

1) Frequency of flopping a set.
2) The times we flop our set & don't win a stack (say villain has QQ on this flop, he's not stacking with the ace there).
3) The times we flop our set & lose to a straight/flush/bigger/bigger full house or set.

And when you're in 3-bet pots, those factors are working against you.

Why not shove the Fullhouse and expect to get called by trip Aces or am I missing something.
Because then its very obvious that our opponent has quad aces?
 
JimmyBrizzy

JimmyBrizzy

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Total posts
916
Awards
1
Chips
1
I think your call preflop is a little iffy, but against these players I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same.

Regardless, after the flop you really shouldn't slowplay this. The pot is already pretty big and you have a big (but still vulnerable) hand, so throw a nice sized bet. Between 1/2 & 2/3's the pot should be good, then just shove if the betting returns to you at any point from there on out.
 
SavagePenguin

SavagePenguin

Put the win in penguin
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 10, 2007
Total posts
7,594
Awards
1
Chips
3
Why not shove the Fullhouse and expect to get called by trip Aces or am I missing something.

Because I was obviously smoking crack when I said that.
Folding the best hand is a great way of mixing up your game. It's makes you unpredictable.
 
JimmyBrizzy

JimmyBrizzy

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Total posts
916
Awards
1
Chips
1
Long & short of it is that the 12:1 implied odds used doesn't take into account just the odds required of flopping a set. It includes the following things:

1) Frequency of flopping a set.
2) The times we flop our set & don't win a stack (say villain has QQ on this flop, he's not stacking with the ace there).
3) The times we flop our set & lose to a straight/flush/bigger/bigger full house or set.

So is 12:1 the general rule we use in cash games? Any article or book that explains it?

Thanks in advance.
 
Lemlywinks

Lemlywinks

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2008
Total posts
1,240
Chips
0
I like the dollar bet here for "stealing" I am assuming that someone will come over the top and you stack it fast

I kinda agree with c9 though, it's really not profitable in the long run to call those 3 bets. However it seemed to work out here
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
So is 12:1 the general rule we use in cash games? Any article or book that explains it?

Thanks in advance.
I can't find the exact article I'm referencing right now, but suffice it to say that different people use different numbers for implied odds. I think Ed Miller says 12:1, Harrington suggests something more like 20:1, ect Its hard to get a real handle on what good set mining odds are. But the bottom line is you want to make as small an investment as possible and you hope you're up against a huge hand.

Hence why when the 63/2 player min-raises from UTG, calling with small pairs = MONIES!!!! However, we don't really have that situation here, and maybe this call isn't a big mistake if both players stack off really light, but even then, we'd probably have to play our hand for its pair value (on flops like 499, ect.) in order for this call to be break even.

This is also the reason that 6-max players usually don't just call button raises with small pairs, because we don't have implied odds. Even though we're calling a 3xbb raise to win 100 bb's or so, a button raiser's range is just so wide that its very rare he'll have something worth playing for stacks with.

So yeah, the math is just there as a guide. In order to set mine you need 2 things:

1) An opponent that likely has a big hand or at least a very strong range.
2) Enough money left behind to make up for the fact that we won't be flopping a set but like 1 time out of 8, and we won't win a stack every time we flop a set.

We have #1 covered in this hand, but #2 I think is lacking.
 
Last edited:
i desire love

i desire love

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Total posts
152
Chips
0
U gotta bet that flop, doesnt the draw scares you? Better to win a small

pot then to lose all your chips. How much to bet? The 1$ bet wouldnt be

a bad idea considering at this level 90% are fish and will raise u with 87 in

this spot.
 
eNTy

eNTy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Total posts
6,936
Chips
0
I was having thought about set odds myself.
Pretty hard to figure out when it's profitable to set mine and when I should fold 'em. On the flop I should've bet, I agree.

I have this shit tendency to snap-hit check whenever I flop a set.
I just do it so fast and afterwords I'm thinking, why didn't I just lead out ? :(

Rest of the hand: CO checked the flop too. This surprised me as I would've thought with his 3bet range he would cbet. Maybe he had JJ-KK and that ace scared him. Anyways on the turn I put out a 1.2 bet I think and everyone folds. :(
 
Top