50nl HU Deep, 3 bet pot, float gone horrifically wrong, how to salvage something?

I think the title sums up the horror show that is this hand quite well.

Villain seems like a solid player. I'm 1 buyin up on him, from just overpowering him bascailly, i have come over the top of a lot of his bets in big pots when i have had nothing and he has folded. I have done this 3 or 4 times to build up my stack. I'm pretty sure he was getting angry at me constantly betting/raising and the fact he couldn't win a pot, so he started 3-betting and 4-betting me a lot pre flop, but tightening up in post flop play.

How do we salvage something from the hand??

poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 2 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $122.15
BB: $162.30

Pre-Flop: K 8 dealt to Hero (SB)
Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $6, Hero calls $4.50

Flop: ($12) Q T T (2 Players)
BB bets $9, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($30) 3 (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $23, BB raises to $58, Hero ????

standard float/turn bet which has been profitable vs this villain, obviously wasnt expecting the turn check raise, so what now??? Flat call and look to hit, fold incase we are drawing relatively dead, shove with some fold equity and outs if called??

For lazy people, i have ~85 left behind, so shoving gives villain about 3:1 to call i think

Seems to me like he is playing AQ or AT. Definately fold here

if he has a,q or a,t we have odds to chase flush, and a ton of implied odds especially against a,t. Folding is a bad option imo if we polarise his range to that

Edit: I lie we don't have direct odds, but we have implied odds vs a,t and and extra king as an out vs a,q plus still probably a ton of implied odds against a,q.

I should add, if i call, i fully expect villain to shove any river, or check call a push, so we have implied odds

switch0723 said:

I should add, if i call, i fully expect villain to shove any river, or check call a push, so we have implied odds

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If this is true it's a no-brainer. You have no FE from a push if he's going to shove/call a shove on any river. Are you honestly trying to say he may fold to a turn shove but then check-call a river shove? I didn't check the math but if you do have implied odds just flat this and shove or call shove on river if you hit, check-fold if you miss.

After re-reading the hand, I think QQ is a possibility as well, and the strongest of them. Am I right?

zachvac said:

If this is true it's a no-brainer. You have no FE from a push if he's going to shove/call a shove on any river. Are you honestly trying to say he may fold to a turn shove but then check-call a river shove? I didn't check the math but if you do have implied odds just flat this and shove or call shove on river if you hit, check-fold if you miss.

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I was referring to the a,q a,t possibilites when i stated that, so its kind of taken out of context looking at it now

what i meant, was that if villain has a,t or a,q, i fully expect them to shove or check call a shove on the river, they may not do that with other hands which i have fold equity against, and of course pure bluffs won't either.

The problem with calling is that villain could check down a lot of ace high's or pp's on the river, that i can't shove against because like i said, i expect a ton of tens and queens to check/call river. Thats where shoving now becomes the option



Inscore, i don't understand what your asking with the am i right?? Are you asking if he had qq?? Because answering that will give away results in a way because it will make it evident what actions i took

zachvac said:

If this is true it's a no-brainer. You have no FE from a push if he's going to shove/call a shove on any river. Are you honestly trying to say he may fold to a turn shove but then check-call a river shove? I didn't check the math but if you do have implied odds just flat this and shove or call shove on river if you hit, check-fold if you miss.

Click to expand...

well if he's bluffing, i think he expects him to continue the bluff on the river if we just call, and we won't be able to call if we miss (which we usually will). however, a shove on the turn would take it

switch0723 said:

Inscore, i don't understand what your asking with the am i right?? Are you asking if he had qq?? Because answering that will give away results in a way because it will make it evident what actions i took

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Ya, thats waht I meant lol.

Imo, you are up against AQ, AT, or QQ. Against AQ and AT, you have outs, yes. Are they worth chasing, some say yes, I say no. I don't think it's worth paying the extra $35 to see the river. I would fold it. If he does in fact have QQ, its obv what you have to do

I dont understand why you have polarized his range to those 3 hands, there are so many hands he could have with a ten in, so many queens, several pp's and bluffs in his range here.

Remeber he is very likely 3 betting me light pre, so he isnt just going to have big pairs and big aces

also you shouldnt be looking at the money side of this. This is more about odds and hand ranges, than actual cash amounts

switch0723 said:

I dont understand why you have polarized his range to those 3 hands, there are so many hands he could have with a ten in, so many queens, several pp's and bluffs in his range here.

Remeber he is very likely 3 betting me light pre, so he isnt just going to have big pairs and big aces

also you shouldnt be looking at the money side of this. This is more about odds and hand ranges, than actual cash amounts

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I have him down to those 3 hands because of the way he is betting the hand. His 3 bet preflop tells me he has some kind of decent hand. He comes out and bets the flop, but he could have missed completely at this point, and just have a high card. His turn check raise is what really sells a strong hand to me, and I'm believing he has the goods at this point.

Yes, my expierience in cash games is limited, I'm a straight tourney player lol. Just trying to give this a shot

aye i know, ill help you out a bit

his 3 betting preflop range at this time, is probably any ace, any pair, and king, most queens, and pretty suited connectors since hes playing back a lot

his c bet tells us nothing ldo

But the check raise could easily have been planned with a strong hand, or he checked with nothing, then just got pi**ed at the fact i had bet again and he's just though i don't think you have a ten or a queen so i raise

I give up lol, I'll just wait for the results to be posted

I doubt he'll check/raise with anything less then what he believes to be the best hand. With the way you been playing, betting into him heavy this would be the perfect setup to take some chips off you. I think you have to figure that you are well behind here and just fold. More times then not you will lose in this type of situation.

well i ended up shoving, which is a play i didn't really like just becuase i feel flat calling and taking the river card with implied odds is a better option.

Villain either made a sick soul read call, or a tilting omfg stop raising call with pocket jacks, but i spiked a king on the river so all was good

Have to say, i didn't really put him on jacks

wow his play makes no sense. I agree with flatting the turn and seeing a river as played, but I like checking back the turn and taking a shot (or maybe raising?) on a good river.

really chuck??? you like checking the turn, surely if we are checking turn, there is no point in floating?

Or is it just because we have hit a club draw to give our hand equity as a reason to take a free card and not bloat the pot? Since that makes sense, and in hindsight, i like taking the free card since we can also bet river if we have missed, but we also prevent being check raised as seen. Also if a float is going to work and villain folds on the turn, it is very liekly they will fold to the same bet on the river

I've convinced myself into liking your checking line better chuck


I assume on a non club non king turn, we are betting to take it down?? and only checking given our equity

yeah it's just kind of a delayed float. I mean what do you do with say JJ here?

I meant to say I like it as an option. I don't think it's 'the' play here, but I also hate getting check-raised on the turn there, so I kind of like checking back the turn too.

The problem is that he'll often have AJ/AK that may call a river bet or may improve to a pair that won't fold, so giving him free cards to improve his hand or give him the idea he has the best hand is a downside.

well i check jj here, and re evaluate river. I don't really understand what that has to do with this though lol. Unless your just showing that the float then bet river is the same line i would take with a hand such as jacks.

The problem im seeing with the 'delayed' float now on this hand, is that if i check the turn i'm basically telling him i don't have a queen or a ten so i probably have a draw such as j,9 or i'm just floating. Therefore we give villain the incentive to bet the river with basically his entire range.

Now i see this as a plus side, since although we get bluffed off our king high which can occasionally be good here, i think it allows us to extract value from bluffs if we hit our flush, but also get extra value from a q that may call a river raise, or even a ten that may stack off thinking that they cleverly slowplayed to disguise their hand


I now really like the line of checking behind on turn and taking a shot on any scare cards on the river that i don't hit, but just checking my king behind on the river if it blanks out with a 2 or 3 for example and just give up on the hand.


I've writen this post really badly i know so i'll basically sum up in saying in this position after floating in a 3 bet pot and hitting a possible flush draw AND having deep stacks AND the + of being in position for river action, i like checking behind on the turn

Well it's past 2pm here, so I have a few drinks in me and probably am not writing too well either.

What I meant by the JJ comment (would hav ebeen better-illustrated with KQ/QJ) is that generally we aren't betting the turn without a really weak hand or a monster (ie you should be checking a queen in a 3bet pot this deep), and the monsters are generally such a small part of your range that he won't believe you. I realize your avg 50nl player doesn't think on this level, but he's basically thinking "naww he can't have a ten", not what I said last sentence.

Anyways ya, you're actually representing...well not so much a 'much stronger' hand, but a somewhat strong hand that shows up 'much more often' than if you had bet the turn...if you get what I mean...? Like you're actually showing more strength by checking back the turn because you're not scrambling to take the pot down with a bet, but rather look like you're trying to get to showdown.

So ya, it doesn't just have to do with the equity of your hand, but taking the appropriate line for what hand you're representing.

ahh yea ok i get it now

we are representing a hand with showdown value that isn't the nuts or close to, but is big enough for us to take it to showdown cheap.

I've never thought of this type of level thinking tbh, although i don't see this happening ever at 50nl, even agaisnt the regs, its something to use later down the road at 200-400 imo

Cheers Chuck

*walks in late*

I actually wouldn't have minded a check behind on the turn either - specifically because we picked up a flush draw, and now have a free shot at making a legit hand. If it was a total blank I'd have been more likely to fire, knowing that it was probably my only chance of winning the pot.

As played I tend to agree with some of the opinions above - flat call the turn and check-fold the river if we don't hit. If we think we're going to get action for the rest of our stack on river, there's no harm in keeping it back until we make a hand.