50NL FR: AKo UTG flopped TPTK vs LAGard

Stick66

Stick66

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Villain is 43/19/3.5 over 63 hands and his showdown quality has been pretty bad. Though my position was bad, my table image was pretty tight since I was showing down well. I don't like re-raising with AK versus loose players, so I flatted from the BB. On the flop, I did consider that AQ and AJ had me beat. But I chose to bet out near pot-sized while it was cheap to define my hand and see where I was at. I figured an underpair was very possible for him, but his flat call didn't really tell me much.

What's my turn move? Do I have more than one good option? What do I put him on since his range is so huge? Do I consider his short stack size? Anything else?


POKERSTARS GAME #20637857774: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/09/23 16:24:27 ET
Table 'Agassiz II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: MinRdetails ($50.25 in chips)
Seat 2: marchstarr ($37.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Muehle69 ($68.50 in chips)
Seat 4: toesek ($61.60 in chips)
Seat 5: MrSticker66 ($50.45 in chips)
Seat 6: JoeIngram1 ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Johnny4002 ($24.85 in chips)
Seat 8: ihibitor ($100.65 in chips)
toesek: posts small blind $0.25
MrSticker66: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Ac Kh]
JoeIngram1: folds
Johnny4002: raises $1.50 to $2
ihibitor: folds
MinRdetails: folds
marchstarr: folds
Muehle69: folds
toesek: folds
MrSticker66: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [Ad Qs Jc]
MrSticker66: bets $3.50
Johnny4002: calls $3.50
*** TURN *** [Ad Qs Jc] [3h]
MrSticker66: .......
Johnny4002: .......


 
BelgoSuisse

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I don't like re-raising with AK versus loose players

Why not?

If villain folds it's a great result. If he calls, at least when you hit TPTK you don't need to overthink too much as stack to pot ratios make is essentially correct to stacks with TPTK.
 
ChuckTs

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What belgo said. Always 3bet against a guy like this, and considering his stack size you can bet-call that flop for stacks.
 
Stick66

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Thanks guys. Fine, I made a mistake PF. But as BW says, "WTF now"? Specifically, the turn?
What's my turn move? Do I have more than one good option? What do I put him on since his range is so huge? Do I consider his short stack size? Anything else?
 
ChuckTs

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Well it's a spot you shouldn't be in, hence why we didn't really comment on your next action.

If you call a raise with 72o, hit top pair and then your opponent bets pot, we're not going to tell you what to do next, we're going to tell you you should have folded preflop.

Deep stacked rings are multistreet games. You should always be thinking about not only what your current action should be, but how you should react if your opponent raises, or what to do on various turn cards if he calls, and what to do on the river after that.

That's why I say in general with AK against a lag, I want to 3bet it preflop and then ship any pair I hit (especially against a shorter stack).

As played I guess we could bet again or just try to get to showdown unless you think he'll call a second bet with AT and worse or KQ/KJ etc.
 
Stick66

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Jeez. I didn't know it was that bad. I basically wanted to know if c-betting twice was that bad to do on a danger board like this with just TPTK facing a short stack. After my 2nd barrel, I was committed and doubled him up. Here's the results anyway:


POKERSTARS GAME #20637857774: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/09/23 16:24:27 ET
Table 'Agassiz II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: MinRdetails ($50.25 in chips)
Seat 2: marchstarr ($37.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Muehle69 ($68.50 in chips)
Seat 4: toesek ($61.60 in chips)
Seat 5: MrSticker66 ($50.45 in chips)
Seat 6: JoeIngram1 ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: Johnny4002 ($24.85 in chips)
Seat 8: ihibitor ($100.65 in chips)
toesek: posts small blind $0.25
MrSticker66: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker66 [Ac Kh]
JoeIngram1: folds
Johnny4002: raises $1.50 to $2
ihibitor: folds
MinRdetails: folds
marchstarr: folds
Muehle69: folds
toesek: folds
MrSticker66: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [Ad Qs Jc]
marchstarr leaves the table
MrSticker66: bets $3.50
Johnny4002: calls $3.50
*** TURN *** [Ad Qs Jc] [3h]
MrSticker66: bets $5
Johnny4002: raises $14.35 to $19.35 and is all-in
MrSticker66: calls $14.35
*** RIVER *** [Ad Qs Jc 3h] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MrSticker66: shows [Ac Kh] (two pair, Aces and Threes)
Johnny4002: shows [Qh Qd] (a full house, Queens full of Threes)
Johnny4002 collected $47.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $49.95 | Rake $2.45
Board [Ad Qs Jc 3h 3s]
Seat 1: MinRdetails folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: marchstarr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Muehle69 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: toesek (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: MrSticker66 (big blind) showed [Ac Kh] and lost with two pair, Aces and Threes
Seat 6: JoeIngram1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Johnny4002 showed [Qh Qd] and won ($47.50) with a full house, Queens full of Threes
Seat 8: ihibitor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
ChuckTs

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Well the thing is you're not cbetting into him. You're donking into him. Doing that any player basically reduces the range they continue with to the stronger half of it. Like what does he do here if he has 9s? A bad player may call the flop but will no doubt be a ton more likely to fold the turn. Your line just doesn't make sense, it doesn't work. Not trying to sound harsh, just blunt :)
 
Stick66

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Well the thing is you're not cbetting into him. You're donking into him. Doing that any player basically reduces the range they continue with to the stronger half of it. Like what does he do here if he has 9s? A bad player may call the flop but will no doubt be a ton more likely to fold the turn. Your line just doesn't make sense, it doesn't work. Not trying to sound harsh, just blunt :)
I don't think I'm understanding.

I put him on Ace-rag with a slight possibility of AQ/AJ, so I bet accordingly and didn't get much info until it was too late. How am I "donking" into him? And maybe give me the definition of "donking" in this context.

Then, are you saying I should have given up on the turn?
 
widowmaker89

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donking is betting into the preflop agressor
 
ChuckTs

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Donking in any context means you're leading into the preflop raiser.

This is again going into too much detail in a spot you shouldn't be in - to apply another analogy, it's like we're analyzing how often bottom pair with 72o is good against a certain range when we should really have folded preflop.

I put him on Ace-rag with a slight possibility of AQ/AJ, so I bet accordingly

I don't see how you can narrow his range this far. He's got a 19% pfr which means he's got a lot more than top pair/top 2 pair hands in his range. The point is that by donking into him we fold out a lot of those worse hands that might not only fold to a donk bet, but would have cbet the majority of the time if checked to.

...didn't get much info until it was too late.

Again this is something I see recurring in the forums. Your goal in a hand isn't about getting the most information as possible, it's about maximizing your EV. What does it matter if you've narrowed your opponents range to a huge extent if you've played the whole hand like crap for that info and lost your whole stack?

Then, are you saying I should have given up on the turn?

No. See point 1, ie we shouldn't be in this spot. I'm just saying as played we should probably exercise a little pot control and let him bluff the bottom end of his range.
 
Stick66

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ChuckTs said:
I don't see how you can narrow his range this far. He's got a 19% pfr which means he's got a lot more than top pair/top 2 pair hands in his range.
Maybe I meant that I thought that was the best he could have and that a set was way too remote considering his past showings. Maybe, but not sure. :eek:


Ok. I think I'm getting it. But I want to address this:
Your line just doesn't make sense, it doesn't work.
..and make sure I understand it.

On the one hand, it sounds like you like donking into him since it gets him to fold his lower range. Then I'm not subject to a C-bet and I can read his hand better by seeing what he does next AKA gaining info.

On the other hand, you say my line doesn't make sense. I thought I repped at least top pair, maybe 2 pair, and I had a gut shot. What part doesn't make sense?

******
Next, let's say I DID 3-bet my AK in the BB. I usually triple the original raise in a case like this (so $6) and I'm 90% sure he would flat call it and not 4-bet. What are my next moves OOP for the rest of the hand? Aren't I in the same predicament? Wouldn't it be dumb not to lead the flop with TPTK OOP?
 
ChuckTs

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On the one hand, it sounds like you like donking into him since it gets him to fold his lower range. Then I'm not subject to a C-bet and I can read his hand better by seeing what he does next AKA gaining info.

If you're worried about getting 'subjected' to a cbet, why flat AK oop in the first place? Again, the goal for the hand should be to take the highest EV line, not to get the most information.

On the other hand, you say my line doesn't make sense. I thought I repped at least top pair, maybe 2 pair, and I had a gut shot. What part doesn't make sense?

Well ask yourself why are you trying to rep at least top pair? Remember our goal is to make the most money (or lose the least). What does repping our hand as top pair or better do for us?

Next, let's say I DID 3-bet my AK in the BB. I usually triple the original raise in a case like this (so $6) and I'm 90% sure he would flat call it and not 4-bet. What are my next moves OOP for the rest of the hand? Aren't I in the same predicament? Wouldn't it be dumb not to lead the flop with TPTK OOP?

Well that's a completely different situation (and a LOT more simple) than vs what you've done in the hand. In that situation the pot would be $12 and the effective stack sizes would be $18. We're bet-calling that flop all day vs a guy this loose. As it stands now we haven't 3bet preflop so he can have any of that %19 pfr he raised with, and our stack to pot ratio is much higher, so stacking is much less of a clear decision.
 
Stick66

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OK. Thanks for that.

Well. There was a time when I overvalued KQ and now I guess I'm undervaluing AK. I know there's been some threads around here about the value of AK, but the search function says "AK" and "value" are too common. Got any links that might talk about AK more indepth? Or maybe we could start a discussion thread about AK?
 
zachvac

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Don't want to beat a dead horse, Chuck pretty much nailed it imo. One point though is that in general the laggier the player, the wider of a range we should be raising/stacking for value. When a halfstack is a lagtard I am stacking AK preflop 100%. If we think he's going to flat any 3-bet then I size it large and shove any flop (unless you think he's an idiot and will bet if we check a dry A or K-high flop). You're oop too and it just sucks playing a hand like this oop. We never know whether we have the best hand and it leads to us making huge mistakes.

On the information subject, I think something Chuck didn't really explain is that although we should make decisions for ev and not for information, information can sometimes be used to increase ev. So although we should never make a move just so we know where we're at, if it leads to us being able to play better against his range (ie we take a line where somehow we know that a shove must be a bluff, don't really want to get into a big example) then it's fine. This is what he's addressing with 3-betting AK. It's very tough to play oop against such a wide range with a hand like AK.

Also one side comment donking (as mentioned, when you're oop and you lead flop after flatting someone else's bet) the flop is something I've seen you do quite a few times, specifically in the set hand in the previous video. This is something that's extremely common from people to "see where they're at" because they think the opponent will cbet a lot. Problem is smart players will then raise these bets a lot and get a lot of folds. On the other hand with monsters (such as this one) they can simply flat and you have no information whatsoever.

I can't think of a single situation when I would flat AK oop like this. It's possible if he were a super-nit that I'd consider folding it, but even aginst a tight 9/6-type player I'd probably raise-fold it preflop. I guess it kinda folds out worse and gets calls from better but I think it has better equity with that line than simply flatting and spewing postflop. If you are in position in this situation, I like simply flatting preflop against tight players.

I just don't understand why you don't like 3-betting AK against lagtards. Their single biggest mistake you want to exploit is betting and raising too much. If he's only got a half-stack here you can punish his mistake pretty bad here as he's either going to have to fold a lot or stacking too wide a range (for example AJ-AQ which you have crushed). Both of these give you money. This line lets him play perfectly against you. You stated yourself that you represent a pair or two. Why give an in postion villain information like that? You are giving away your hand range and that's never good. Villain knows exactly where he's at and you have no idea where you're at.
 
Stick66

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Thanks man.

My previous thinking on not liking to 3-bet AK Vs LAGs is that their range IS so wide that I wouldn't be able to know if they hit the flop. Plus, being OOP is another problem. With a tighter player, I could be more sure about when my OOP c-bet would be good.

But now, you guys are helping me figure out that it's best to take the lead here. It opens up more possibilities to win and put more mystery in his read on me.

Regarding donking, I usually only do it when I sense weakness in a stealer or when I have a vulnerable monster like an overpair or set with a drawy board. My outlook has been to make moves like that on the flop while the pot is small enough and neither of us feels commited enough to call down yet.

Isn't it OK to donk bet with a set or overpair when a 2-flush flops? Why give them a free chance at another flush card? I slowplayed a set of Aces the other day and got turned by a straight.
 
zachvac

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Regarding sets on drawy boards. In general, most draws will be cbetting the flop. Say you raise preflop with ATh and the flop comes Q52 with 2 hearts and your opponent checks to you. You're betting most of the time right? Same with them. Basically on drawy flops most opponents will bet their draws. This allows you to get some more dead money in the pot as well as cut down on their implied odds.

Now obviously people don't ALWAYS bet their draws, so if they checked behind and the 3rd heart comes you don't want to go crazy, but most likely a draw like that is semi-bluffing boards like that. So checking actually gives you 2 advantages in that it traps draws and denies them the extra card cheap (even a 3/4 pot bet is relatively small if it's a limped or just raised pot preflop. Re-raising a 3/4 pot bet is a lot more). On top of that (this is only hands you're stacking like sets), your opponent will always want to stack his big hands on the flop, so checking doesn't lose value from opponents. Here are the possibilities imo for a drawy flop like that:

air - may cbet if we check, fold to C/R. If they check behind will most likely fold to turn bet no matter what comes. Advantage: C/R

draw - will almost always semi-bluff where we get to bloat pot with what we are pretty sure is the best hand. Advantage: C/R

draw pt. 2 - they MAY check behind with their big draws. This gets them less from our top-pair type hands when we have them because we'll play pot control and their bet they get out of us will be smaller because of the nature of bet sizes (exponential). In this instance the advantage is for leading, but overall if we check our monsters and top pair type hands opponents won't be able to extract much value when they hit if they're checking their draws back.

Monster - stacking regardless, will always bet when last to act because of drawy board, we stack them no matter what we do here. No advantage.

As you can see all the possibilities they could have C/R is basically the better line unless they are checking back draws. If they are checking back draws they are going to have trouble extracting value when they hit against a lot of our range. This is why with monsters like that I like the C/R when we are oop and villain was the one to raise preflop.
 
BelgoSuisse

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^^^^ What zach says about sets on drawy boards.

Also, we can balance our C/R range by playing good draws oop the same way.
 
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