50NL Bottom set on rainbow board.

[l Love Beer]

Newstarisborn is a pretty solid multi-tabler, from what i've seen and his #'s are 19/12/2.
Didn't have many hands on Moltke6, but he is 13/5/infinite.

I feel like Newstar is just rasing because he was donked into, as i've seen him do this a couple of times. But no real idea on what Moltke is working with.

Question is flat call new star's raise and fire on the turn, or re-pop it to find out how much these guys really like their hands... Any opinions are welcome.

full tilt poker Game #7615354377: Table Cavaliers - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 4:17:55 ET - 2008/08/12
Seat 1: NewStarIsBorn ($66.85)
Seat 2: Yashiro82 ($82.15)
Seat 3: POCKETACESOK ($49.85)
Seat 4: l Love Beer ($49.25)
Seat 5: Moltke6 ($43.40)
Seat 6: Dalkod ($17.25)
Seat 7: CardQueen666 ($10)
Seat 8: Alfa82 ($10)
Seat 9: ArimosTX ($53.50)
l Love Beer posts the small blind of $0.25
Moltke6 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to l Love Beer [6h 6s]
Dalkod: Wow how boring
Dalkod folds
Alfa82 folds
ArimosTX folds
NewStarIsBorn raises to $2
Yashiro82 folds
POCKETACESOK folds
l Love Beer calls $1.75
Moltke6 calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [6c Kh Qd]
l Love Beer checks
Moltke6 bets $3.50
NewStarIsBorn raises to $8.50
l Love Beer has 15 seconds left to act
l Love Beer ???????

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I would flat this, hoping Moltke comes along, or even better, comes over the top.

 

[c9h13no3]

I would jamalam & get all in. But I'm a big monkey like that. Flatting is probably best to induce the other guy to come along (or better yet, raise).

 

[t1riel]

Reraise here. If they both call, that adds money to the pot. If the original raiser calls, I would be prepared to bet huge if the straight draw becomes more apparent. Otherwise, check and see what he does.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Reraise here. If they both call, that adds money to the pot.

But we don't need to add money to the pot now. It's big enough already to bring us to play for stacks for sure without the need to overbet anything. The only reason to reraise here would be to price out draws, and there are not that many drawing hands here to worry about.

 

[c9h13no3]

would be to get maximum value from draws

Fix0red

 

[aliengenius]

Should we slowplay? Let's check the list:

1. our hand is very strong
check, a set is pretty strong
2. you will probably chase everyone out by betting
NO, the weak lead indicates at least some type of hand, either tp (maybe AQ looking to see where he is), or some draw (JT?), and the raise, while it could be a "play" is at least as likely to be a real hand that will call us down. This is the biggest reason not to slowplay usually. If your opponents are not going anywhere anyway, then you have no reason not to play fast.
3. the free card has good possibility to help make a second best hand
NO, they likely have second best hands already
4. free card has little chance of outdrawing you
check, although JT and some gutshots are out against us; although see reason two above: if (weak) draws are going to call you anyway, just bet/raise.
5. the pot is not that large
NO, it's a raised pot, that has been raised on the flop. If your rr folds them both, oh well, take it down.

 

[c9h13no3]

Hmm... I thought we were last to act before. Since we'll have to act first on the turn, we pretty much have to bet. Idk, I'd be pretty tempted just to jam it in since we're out of position.

@AG
I'm not sure why you'd want to avoid slowplaying in a large pot. We can get all in with 1 more street of betting without over-betting. However, in a small pot, slow-playing eliminates the ability to get max value.

 

[viking999]

I think a slowplay is pretty transparent here. There's only one draw that you might be flatting with, and I don't think it's believable that you'd call with any pair less than AK. Being out of position on future streets, slowplaying might freeze up action from AA or AK which might otherwise double us up on the flop. I think AA or AK is way more likely than a bluff, and there's no guaranteeing that a bluffer will fire again after making a strong call on the flop.

 

[viking999]

@AG
I'm not sure why you'd want to avoid slowplaying in a large pot. We can get all in with 1 more street of betting without over-betting. However, in a small pot, slow-playing eliminates the ability to get max value.

I can't speak for AG, but here's my take on it. The pot is already kind of big relative to the stacks. Slowplaying risks losing what's already in the pot for a better chance at winning what's behind. The bigger the ratio between the pot and the stacks, the less value there is in slowplaying, because you're increasing the chance you'll lose a larger amount for a better chance at winning a smaller amount.

I'm not too sure this principle applies here, because the potential draws aren't very strong, and there's still about 4x behind. I think the more compelling argument against slowplaying is that you will win less against made hands, not more.

 

[switch0723]

I jam this and re pop it here for 2 main reasons

1. By flatting yes we may very well get molt in the pot but there are so many action killing cards on the turn. Although they aren't major action killers, it links in with reason number 2

2. How do we play it on the turn by flat calling?? Do we lead straight out if something like a jack falls and quite possibly lose all action from hands that may have stacked flop but now won't on turn. Or do we check and risk it being checked behind and a ten falls on the river completing broadway for aces? or even getting it checked through to river and completely destroy our chances of getting our stack in at all and lose all action from draws.

Basically a re pop it here to sum up and mainly becuase we are out of position and risk the turn being checked through and thus drastically reducing our chances of getting our stack in the middle

 

[Poker Orifice]

Great reading these ring strategy posts on here,.. tks to all who regularly post here as it is much appreciated. "Raise"... I like A-G's comments here,.. as always.

 

[l Love Beer]

Good responses so far... i'll post the results later tonight.

 

[c9h13no3]

there are so many action killing cards on the turn.

Not really. Aces & 9's are the only thing that would slow me down with a hand like KQ.

Basically a re pop it here to sum up and mainly becuase we are out of position and risk the turn being checked through

Agreed. This is the reason right here. We either check/call the flop and then lead the turn for a bet which is so wtf. Or, we check turn with the risk of being checked through. I'm not happy about either of these plays.

Why couldn't you just lead out and avoid this crap? When you're in early position, with a player between you and the preflop raiser, you want to lead out to put the other cold caller in the middle. If he calls, it puts the original preflop raiser in a position to squeeze, and it traps more money in the pot. Not to mention that you'd still get the same pot bloating effect of a check/raise if the preflop raiser decides to raise the flop.

 

[S93]

im raising here there is plenty of chips in the pot allready and given the action there not going any where. Vilians seem to already have a made hand so there is litle need to slowplay imo.

On a side note i whould have preferd leading out on the flop with half pot bet.

 

[switch0723]

Not really. Aces & 9's are the only thing that would slow me down with a hand like KQ.

Yes i am aware, but i linked it in with my second reason basically saying that we may give up the turn as a chack through meaning scare cards can fall on the turn or river or a combo of both

 

[l Love Beer]

So as promised here are the results. Don't have the rest of the HH, because PT3 eats them whenever i autoimport. Anyways, i re-raised to 24.50 and they folded so fast that it was unreal.

I felt by flat calling it really narrowed my range to either TJ or 66, and since there were so many turn cards that could either kill my action or scare me i didn't like flat calling here. Also i hate trying to slowplay in multiway pots, espescially when they've been raised preflop.

Thanks for the quality posts seemed as though most of you were thinking the same things i was esp. Switch & viking.

 

[switch0723]

If they didnt call your raise then they wouldnt have paid you off on later streets anyway since they obviously didnt have strong enough hands

 

[BelgoSuisse]

If they didnt call your raise then they wouldnt have paid you off on later streets anyway since they obviously didnt have strong enough hands

That's not necessarily true. If one of the villains has AK for instance, he could very well fold to a flop reraise as that screams two pairs or a set on that board, while if you flat the flop bet, he could easily put another bet on turn.

Coming over the top of the flop screams strength so much that only really strong hands could follow. I prefer a line where medium strength hands get a chance to play along and put more money in.

 

[S93]

That's not necessarily true. If one of the villains has AK for instance, he could very well fold to a flop reraise as that screams two pairs or a set on that board, while if you flat the flop bet, he could easily put another bet on turn.

Coming over the top of the flop screams strength so much that only really strong hands could follow. I prefer a line where medium strength hands get a chance to play along and put more money in.

This... is the reason why i whould preferd leading out.

 

[switch0723]

That's not necessarily true. If one of the villains has AK for instance, he could very well fold to a flop reraise as that screams two pairs or a set on that board, while if you flat the flop bet, he could easily put another bet on turn.

Coming over the top of the flop screams strength so much that only really strong hands could follow. I prefer a line where medium strength hands get a chance to play along and put more money in.

we flat call, villain likely slows down on turn and river, at least by raising we have the opportunity to get our stack in on the flop against a,k, while by flat calling we may never get the stack in at all