$50 NLHE Heads-up: value shove straight OTR on flush board: line check

JCgrind

JCgrind

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this is 50NL deep ante, i only just bought in.

60 hands on villain, about half from 6max play and half from HU as this is a 6 handed table

was planning to shove river if he checked and call a shove too, but he bet weird and not sure. not gunna give stats since theyre super unconverged and irrelevant here, but from what id seen hes pretty damn aggro, although no info for spots where he c/r's

cheers

poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em $0.10 Ante - 2 players - View hand 1944966
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (BTN/SB): $51.22
BB: $126.54

Pre Flop: ($0.95) Hero is BTN/SB with 6
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8
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Hero raises to $1.25, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($2.70) 7
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6
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5
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(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.49, BB raises to $6, Hero calls $4.51

Turn: ($14.70) 9
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(2 players)
BB bets $10, Hero calls $10

River: ($34.70) T
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(2 players)
BB bets $10, Hero raises to $33.87 all in,
 
hackmeplz

hackmeplz

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This is a very easy flat. The issue is that both you and villain can have a good amount of flushes and 8x in your range, so he will pretty much never be calling you light if he's any good. The one positive is you might be able to make him fold a chop but I think the times you run into flushes negates being able to make him fold the chop.
 
duggs

duggs

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i agree with that. i dont think he is b/c anything worse with the river SPR
 
hackmeplz

hackmeplz

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Actually I didn't see the bet size I think he might actually have way more chops in his range given the bet size and basically never has a flush. I'm kinda on the fence now but I like it way more I should probably start actually reading the details and stuff.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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my logic is this.

if he ships it i think i sigh call for a chop. would be fine with the call on any other river but obv it comes a fkn T

if he checks it imo im never behind and i have him on a set, maybe weak overpair so i just gii or bet big and hope hes bad enough to call, unless he has an 8 aswell in which case i have the advantage of potentially folding out the chop

but ye bets 1/3 pot. dont think this is ever sneakily trying to induce a shove or a vbet bluff. not sure why, just didnt feel like it. again it makes me think sets/overpairs where he obv needs to bet for value, but is being a bitch about it. ive kinda taken your comments HMP as that you think his range here is 8x, flushes and air? do you think weak overpairs/sets are a big part of his range given flop c/r, decent turn bet and then ye the awkward bitching-out river bet?

if i got to the river here with like Ad7x, i think im shoving it over like this as a bluff too. thoughts on that?

and what do you mean duggs? its like ~$20 OTR for him to win $80?
 
duggs

duggs

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like i think is range is unbalanced in that there are more scared hands that b/f than there are better hands, since most hands will shove for value rather than induce with an SPR of 1 HU with one street to play. but i also think some smaller flushes and nutty flushes do this some % of the time.

but in theory anything that is thinish like overpairs and sets should be bet/folding or jamming(if they think they can bet for value or whatever) since this isnt a spot we will jam light at all given board texture. and there are some flushes like the Ad8d and 8dxd which block alot of the combos we can call with that might bet small to get us to hero off.

so for sure if you think he is going to b/c off with worse then jam it in and expect sets and chops to call off but in practice i expect 8x to station and anything worse to fold, and a small percentage of the time we value town ourselves imo.

disclaimer: i play tournaments therefore are terrible
 
acky100

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shoving all in is sexy if he might fold a chop? i kind of doubt he would though given his price so i probs just call although i hardly think we're beat (would expect him to shove flushes every time almost) just dont expect him to ever call with anything worse, dont think he is value betting any over pairs here ever and if he is he isnt going to call a shove with anything other than 8x and flushes i dont think???
 
duggs

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does he call with flushes more often than he folds a chop or calls with worse?
 
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switch0723

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just flat, no point in turning your hand into a bluff in the hope you can fold a chop which is unlikely. Villain is getting 4:1ish on a call, very unlikely he folds an 8 after betting an inducing number on the river
 
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baudib1

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His sizing is very good with nutty hands. If you never bet the same amount on the river as you do on the turn with the nuts you should try it.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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shoving all in is sexy if he might fold a chop? i kind of doubt he would though given his price so i probs just call although i hardly think we're beat (would expect him to shove flushes every time almost) just dont expect him to ever call with anything worse, dont think he is value betting any over pairs here ever and if he is he isnt going to call a shove with anything other than 8x and flushes i dont think???

he was a real smart player it seemed, so i just cant see a super aggro opponent going into slowplay/induce mode with a flush here ever. i mean the whole point of him being so aggro is to put me into herocall mode and have to pay him off in this spot w the 8 when he has a flush so ye i dont see him ever not jamming the nuts here.

i agree that generally, overpairs are going to bet/fold this river, but i think the SPR is soo good that an overpair will sometimes (and sets will regularly) just be like ahhhhh fk it one time and make the herocall

just flat, no point in turning your hand into a bluff in the hope you can fold a chop which is unlikely. Villain is getting 4:1ish on a call, very unlikely he folds an 8 after betting an inducing number on the river

i agree now that ye hes never able to fold the 8 here with since the SPR is so good, but i kinda think that itll get him onto heroing sets moreso than i did when i posted this

His sizing is very good with nutty hands. If you never bet the same amount on the river as you do on the turn with the nuts you should try it.

never tried this. since im only just coming up from micros i feel like it would miss tons of value, but ill def give it a whirl vs the aggrobananas. i imagine lots of people would have a hard time folding busted draws to a bet like that
 
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baudib1

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I'd shove the river when villain's range is strong enough to call given the pot odds and your range beats his strong range, or if he likes to hero in polarized spots.

In spots where you get to the river and are barreling and somehow bink the river, I'd go for the same bet type of thing when villain's range is pretty weak.
 
N

noreraise

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Hmm, what do you expect to get called with?
Tbh his line doesn't look like he has flush, and a higher straight is very unlikely, so a push is not bad at all, sometimes you get some value by him calling you with top pair or whatever thinking you have turned a pair into a bluff.

However, I like a call here just in case of him having a flush, and also you get to a showdown, where you can see what he has for him to do that weird bet of $10 on the $34 pot on that 5679T board
 
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nidal55

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my question is what did he craise the flop with? are u sure that calling with 2 diamonds on the flop is ok? u could be behind chasing sthg wrong with reverse implied and no implied since the straight is transparent.maybe im wrong but i wouldnt call the flop with that less info on the opponent.
 
JCgrind

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straight is way less transparent that the flush for starters.

secondly, its HU so he doesnt need anything to raise the flop. mid pair + OESD its basically the nuts HU

my question is what did he craise the flop with? are u sure that calling with 2 diamonds on the flop is ok? u could be behind chasing sthg wrong with reverse implied and no implied since the straight is transparent.maybe im wrong but i wouldnt call the flop with that less info on the opponent.

^^ really? what the hell, are you serious? because my pair totally loses to a flush draw. lol wow.

thank you both for resurrecting an old thread with info that has already been said, or is completely terrible advice
 
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nidal55

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i said maybe im wrong but u look pretty sure.u wouldnt get angry if u were sure. u wont get criticized if you dont post anything unless u just need encouragement. i know ur a brave player with good hand-reading abilities but sometimes we re wrong and loose to weaker opponents. beeing careful and avoiding nasty spots is not that bad. i hope ur river shove was paid by an inferior hand but doubt that too.
 
JCgrind

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i wasnt sure whether shoving river had any benefit greater than calling, and thought id post it here to get some more opinions- i still thought it was better than just calling though, and looking back at this post, i still do. i am however, 110% sure that calling his flop raise is correct.

being careful is not how you play poker, obviously he can have me beat here but in this spot i think a) he very often doesnt, and b) i can actually get paid by worse/fold out the same hand since the SPR is so low, which is why i think shoving is beneficial.

if i was wrong here this one time, fine, im not concerned about that. im concerned about whether this is the best play based on this villain type as well as my own very bluffy image.

he tank folded. so i have no idea what he had. but again, his cards arent the point at all here although fwiw, im 99% sure it was a set hero folding
 
youregoodmate

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I think this is down to an individuals read. The standard play is obviously just a call but your reasoning seems very valid JC.
 
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nidal55

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tell me if im wrong jc.against his set you had 26% equity and against two overcards with flush draw barely 45%.against sthng like 78o 20% and you were doing well only against top pair or one over with flushdraw. So a mathematically wrong call right?Against a competent opponent a 4567 board is not the best to call ur shove and a two tone board not the best to go for a straight.even HU unless there is some leveling this call isnt mathematically wrong?are u getting the correct price if ur read about a set was correct (26%) and u just called a 4x raise? i dont know im new to this book poker but i hope what i read is correct and im asking without the slightest irony just discussing.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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if i was calling all in, then yes. but im in position and theres money left behind. i dictate how much money goes in the pot. youre forgetting that i have a shitload of equity if hes airballing overs or a gutterball, which is entirely plausible OTF.
if i think that hell stack when i peel it on the turn, then yeah i am. when he raises OTF, his bet is 1/10th of my stack and i have nearly a 1/3 chance of making my hand
 
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