$50 NLHE Full Ring: Tough Turn Spot..

Epik High

Epik High

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$50 NL HE Full Ring: Tough Turn Spot..

Villian is an 18/14 reg, what do you guys think of this turn spot?


UTG+2: $72.50
MP1: $108.00
MP2: $93.10
CO: $52.50
BTN: $34.25
SB: $26.65
Hero (BB): $152.15
UTG: $40.40
UTG+1: $26.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with Kh Kd
2 folds, UTG+2 raises to $1.75, 5 folds, Hero calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.75) 6d Ts 6s (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets $2.50, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to $8.50, UTG+2 calls $6

Turn: ($20.75) Qs (2 players)
Hero...
 
c9h13no3

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Any particular reason for the flat pre? As played, bet/call the turn.
 
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BigBelle

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I don't like the flat call pre-flop either. I 3 bet every time because bad position. I don't think you know much about the villain's hand from action so far. His bet call consistent with either over pair or flush draw with over cards. I tend to be conservative when I get strange action with a pocket pair that doesn't improve and aboard that hits a draw. I probably check fold.
 
Epik High

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Any particular reason for the flat pre? As played, bet/call the turn.

im flatting there because hes EP. If im like never 3betting light here, i cant really 3bet for value.

why are you bet/calling? what do you think villians raising range is on turn?
 
Numbuh 0ne

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I also think ur kinda crazy for not 3 betting preflop. As played i would but him on AKs-AT, that was a real scare card but if it didn't hit him i doubt he bets it so in this situation i might check/call depending on the bet, were oop here and I don't wanna be playing something to marginal in a big pot. I really think you messed up not reraising pre.
 
c9h13no3

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why are you bet/calling? what do you think villians raising range is on turn?
His legit value raising range on the turn has gotta be crazy narrow, and I just get suspicious whenever value ranges are crazy narrow. How many hands does an 18/14 have that can make a flush when he raises in EP?

For value, he's raising his flushes (AK, AJ, KJ maybe?), boats & quads (TT, QQ, 66?), and maybe aces with the ace of spades. That's a pretty damn narrow range.

I'm more focused on the "bet" part of the "bet/fold", since there's a ton of worse pairs in his range (and 1-card flush draws) that we want value from.

As far as 3-betting preflop, meht, balance is stupid. If you think he's a good enough reg to fold QQ-TT and AK to a 3-bet, then fine, but I'm not sure I'd give him that much credit if your only read is "18/14 reg". I know why you flatted, I'm just saying people flat more than they should, giving regs credit for folding more hands than you think, especially at 50NL.
 
Epik High

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His legit value raising range on the turn has gotta be crazy narrow, and I just get suspicious whenever value ranges are crazy narrow. How many hands does an 18/14 have that can make a flush when he raises in EP?

For value, he's raising his flushes (AK, AJ, KJ maybe?), boats & quads (TT, QQ, 66?), and maybe aces with the ace of spades. That's a pretty damn narrow range.

I'm more focused on the "bet" part of the "bet/fold", since there's a ton of worse pairs in his range (and 1-card flush draws) that we want value from.

As far as 3-betting preflop, meht, balance is stupid. If you think he's a good enough reg to fold QQ-TT and AK to a 3-bet, then fine, but I'm not sure I'd give him that much credit if your only read is "18/14 reg". I know why you flatted, I'm just saying people flat more than they should, giving regs credit for folding more hands than you think, especially at 50NL.

Why are we bet/calling then when he has a super narrow turn raising range?
 
rileyl

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Why are we bet/calling then when he has a super narrow turn raising range?

Because it's his VALUE range that is narrow meaning that we expect him to show up with some/lots of bluffs.
 
Epik High

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Because it's his VALUE range that is narrow meaning that we expect him to show up with some/lots of bluffs.

......he said he wanted to bet/call.....
 
rileyl

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......he said he wanted to bet/call.....

Lol yes because he's repping a narrow VALUE range when we bet and he raises which means:

1. He probably will have bluffs in his raising range which is why we call because we beat these bluffs.
 
Epik High

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Lol yes because he's repping a narrow VALUE range when we bet and he raises which means:

1. He probably will have bluffs in his raising range which is why we call because we beat these bluffs.

lol so what bluffs does villian have in his range? also, what does villian perceive our range to be after ch/r flop?
 
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What is going on in this thread? Are people missing the flop action?

Villain bet/called the flop. What bluffs can he possibly show up with if he raises the turn? Bet/Call has to be insane spew. Check/calling the turn and bet/folding are both ok, though I think I like bet/folding better since we can get value (slash protection) out of TxXs or QsQx JsJx where these hands might check behind the turn a lot if we check

I don't mind the flat pre as a mix up but I'd prefer to 3 bet in a 3:1 ratio...i guess it depends how often we're 3 betting out of the blinds HU and how often we are defending our blind with a flat HU.

On the flop I like c/ring (or c/cing depending on board texture... in this case CR bc our range has a lot of draws and thus we can get good value out ofour hand) if villain c bets the majority of HU pots or leading out if villain raises donk bets/ doesn't give us a big hand if we lead into him
 
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Really I think flatting pre is criminal when we are reasonably deep (140 bBs effective) and OOP vs. an EP raiser. It'll be hard to get stacks in by the river without 3-betting pre.

I think we are pretty much crushed on the turn, we're not looking to hot vs. his flop continuing range. B/F or C/F are ok, I think B/C is insane without reads that he's going to bluff this spot a lot.
 
c9h13no3

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Lets assume villain floats the flop check/raise with 77-99, and will turn those hands that have a spade into a bluff.

If hero bets $15 on the turn, villain will shove $47.25 into about $50, and we'll be getting roughly 2:1 on our call. Thus we need 33% equity to continue.

Hand 0: 64.286% { AcAs, AdAs, AhAs, QQ, TT, 9c9s, 9d9s, 9h9s, 8c8s, 8d8s, 8h8s, 7c7s, 7d7s, 7h7s, 66, AsKs, AsJs }
Hand 1: 35.714% { KdKh }

Because villain's value raise range is so tiny, we only need a very few combos of bluffs to give us the equity needed for a call. Villain may never bluff here, I have no idea, I haven't played full ring or NLHE in a while. But as far as equity goes, we don't need very many hands we beat in his turn shoving range to make this a call.
 
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Lets assume villain floats the flop check/raise with 77-99, and will turn those hands that have a spade into a bluff.

If hero bets $15 on the turn, villain will shove $47.25 into about $50, and we'll be getting roughly 2:1 on our call. Thus we need 33% equity to continue.

Hand 0: 64.286% { AcAs, AdAs, AhAs, QQ, TT, 9c9s, 9d9s, 9h9s, 8c8s, 8d8s, 8h8s, 7c7s, 7d7s, 7h7s, 66, AsKs, AsJs }
Hand 1: 35.714% { KdKh }

Because villain's value raise range is so tiny, we only need a very few combos of bluffs to give us the equity needed for a call. Villain may never bluff here, I have no idea, I haven't played full ring or NLHE in a while. But as far as equity goes, we don't need very many hands we beat in his turn shoving range to make this a call.

This is all fine, but it neglects a few important points.

1- OUR range. We flatted out of the BB, tons of medium SCs are in our range. Our Flop C/R could be a bluff with air obviously, but we also could have tons of draws and 6s. Raising us after we've c/red the flop and bet the turn is dangerous/expensive and probably won't yield a whole lot of folds since our range is flushes and 6s a lot here.

2- Villain called a flop CR. To think we're good ona spade turn after he raises We have to not only assume he calls with 77-99, but in addition is willing to turn these hands into bluffs if checked to on the turn. This 33% equity talk assumes villain shows up here with 77-99 just as often as XsXs or a FH and that simply isn't the case

3- Once the spade comes his entire non floating (and this is .25/.50 NL so i'll discount the % of a float here) range is hands that can showdown. Do we give an unknown at low stakes credit for being creative enough to either float the turn planning to bluff the flush (a bad idea in this spot obv bc of our range), or for being creative enough to turn TxXs into a bluff? Even if the X is an Ace they'd still call rather than raise.



This is just a spot where if raised villain is not going to show up with air here often if at all

Don't let the fact that our hand was under repped pre give off the impression that it's stronger than it is.
 
BelgoSuisse

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We really need to 3bet preflop. We're deep enough for villain to call our 3bet with most of his EP range, and having a smaller SPR will make the hand so much easier to play postflop.

As played, we should either C/C or B/F, depending on villain's aggression level.
 
reverie

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grunch post:

I think OP thinks villain's range is very narrow in this spot. Like TT and QQ+. Its possible he lost the hand to a spiked QQ and is wondering if he could somehow have pot controlled the turn. But the reality is, once you've check raised the easiest way to play the hand is to fire any turn imo. It doesn't matter if you're thinking "nothing calls that I beat" because check evaluating the turn is such a murky spot with a read based purely on preflop stats. Whether you can bet fold the turn? now that is an interesting one.
 
atlantafalcons0

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LOOK - If you're gonna flat preflop, do the same on the flop.

If you had the pot would have been $8.75 on the turn.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I would have 3bet preflop, and something crazy like bet pot on the flop.

LOL!
 
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