$50 NLHE Full Ring: QQ 4bet Spot?

$50 NL HE Full Ring: QQ 4bet Spot?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 18/16/2.8

Title says it all really as he has a 3bet of 17.4 over a sample size of 71 hands.
what to we do if he shoves if we 4bet, we happy to get it in?

poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP3: $50.10 (100.2 bb)
CO: $48.90 (97.8 bb)
BTN: $58.65 (117.3 bb)
SB: $52.05 (104.1 bb)
BB: $50 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $59.55 (119.1 bb)
MP1: $71.45 (142.9 bb)
Hero (MP2): $93.25 (186.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with Q:club: Q:heart:
2 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, MP3 raises to $6, Hero??

ugh so gross because you pretty much gotta get it in, but he pretty much has you beat a lot. 4bet and call a shove is still fine i think

Why are we considering 4-betting QQ vs. a competent aggressive player in a non steal/resteal spot?

dsvw56 said:

Why are we considering 4-betting QQ vs. a competent aggressive player in a non steal/resteal spot?

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because folding and calling both suck

vanquish said:

because folding and calling both suck

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Yeah, but vs. this guy, what does 4-betting accomplish?

dsvw56 said:

Yeah, but vs. this guy, what does 4-betting accomplish?

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pretty sure he just folds a lot and when he doesn't fold its us with QQ vs. QQ+, AKo, AKs, which is 40 vs 60 ugh

edit: equity goes up if you include a couple combinations of JJ!

vanquish said:

pretty sure he just folds a lot and when he doesn't fold its us with QQ vs. QQ+, AKo, AKs, which is 40 vs 60 ugh

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Yeah, so why not call and CRAI on non-A/K flops? He might even be more willing to stack JJ/TT as overpairs as well since I don't think he's 5-bet shoving them PF.

whatever you do don't fold

If his 3b is that high over 71 hands he's either running like GOD, is a super user, or is 3betting alll sorts of stuff. Guess which is most likely?

I don't really hate sticking it in here against this guy pre... I'm basically putting this guy into a borderline maniac category at this point and I think he will not only 3bet you but will also call a shove with hands like AQ, JJ and TT. He's also going to be folding a reasonable amount of other random hands.

He very well could show up here with AA/KK sure but I think he's 3betting and calling range are decently wider than that. He could also be doing this with lower pp's (88 for example) or even AJ... those he may fold to a shove and that's not a bad thing, although we'd do better by calling/shoving non AK flops against those hands.


Flatting/shoving a flop with no A/K is not a terrible line either cause he's not likely to fold an overpair such as JJ at all if you do...he MIGHT fold JJ/TT to a 4b shove and he might not. the flip side to this is you are basically letting him bluff you out with JJ on an A high flop though as he most likely will attempt to do.

I talked about this in another thread the other day. I was saying I think it is -EV to stack off with QQ pre flop as a general rule. Against someone 3 betting that light though the chips are going in.

The thing is once you have 4 bet someone, I would say it is a huge leak to fold then, because of all the dead money in the pot.

4B call shove should be profitable in this situation. If villain is pretty spewy or barrels alot postflop then i think you could flat this oop. But if you aren't that confident playing postflop oop then there is nothing wrong with 4Bing. With good reads/postflop play tho flatting here might be more +EV i think just coz villain's range may be polarized (if he does indeed 3B alot) and he probably isn't going to 5B much worse (ie. you just get alot of folds). But you really need to know how to play vs villain oop on flops that have an A/K (ie. you can't just c/f). Problem is that over 71 hands, 3B of 17% means almost nothing (means he has probably 3B twice? which means he could just have picked up some hands).

Not a situation you have to worry about tho (if you 4B and villain showed up with AA then whatever).

I actually timed out lol as my gf's internet is so bad but I was just wondering what would be the best play in this spot.
However to flat this 3bet here, I thought calling OOP with PP's wasnt a good move, I have always thought this could be ok with JJ and QQ though.

Jurn8 said:

However to flat this 3bet here, I thought calling OOP with PP's wasnt a good move, I have always thought this could be ok with JJ and QQ though.

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It is generally. But if you play better than villain postflop and if villain's 3B range is wide and he won't spaz 5B shove worse, it is fine w/bigger pps. That said, i'm sure alot of nl50 FR players will not have wide 3B ranges at all.

Thing is, alot of players at FR lower stakes are actually fairly solid pre (ie. they know to play tight, position, etc.) but don't have the slightest clue what to do postflop (esp. in 3B pots). So if you do, then it is ok to play oop postflop having a strong hand vs a weaker range and a villain that is lost with what to do.

feitr said:

It is generally. But if you play better than villain postflop and if villain's 3B range is wide and he won't spaz 5B shove worse, it is fine w/bigger pps. That said, i'm sure alot of nl50 FR players will not have wide 3B ranges at all.

Thing is, alot of players at FR lower stakes are actually fairly solid pre (ie. they know to play tight, position, etc.) but don't have the slightest clue what to do postflop (esp. in 3B pots). So if you do, then it is ok to play oop postflop having a strong hand vs a weaker range and a villain that is lost with what to do.

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Think this kinda sums me up lol Well Im getting better postflop since being at 50nl but still need to develop alot more tbh. My 3bet range is quite wide now vs some villians but it all depends. Plus i wish somebody would write some strategy on 3bet pots.

Yea and if you do feel that you are a little lost postflop, then it is a good idea to play very solid preflop and not put yourself in tough postflop positions (ie. 4B QQ and get it in here vs a wide 3B range, rather than get hopelessly lost trying to play it oop in a 3B pot on some flops). But it is important to note that vs a wide 3B range (and this guy may not have had one, since it takes 3B stats a long time to converge) 4Bing premiums isn't the best idea in general, as villain will fold all his light 3Bs and jam the top of his range. Although it is definitely +EV to 4B QQ vs a wide 3B range, it is more +EV to flat in a 3B pot (unless villain will 5B shove a fairly wide range) if you can outplay villain postflop, since your hand is underrepped and villains range is wider (ie. your equity is much better vs villain's range). But when you are learning, it is best to avoid these spots.

$4.50 you have to see a flop, if it is AK flop then get out, if you nail the Q, then a great chance your taking his stack.

$4.50 is see a flop, why commit on QQ ? no need to reraise here, only AA or KK will reraise your reraise, then what ?

See a flop, have to always see the flop, then decide.

bfw0082 said:

$4.50 you have to see a flop, if it is AK flop then get out, if you nail the Q, then a great chance your taking his stack.

$4.50 is see a flop, why commit on QQ ? no need to reraise here, only AA or KK will reraise your reraise, then what ?

See a flop, have to always see the flop, then decide.

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I agree with your point in principle. Seeing a flop is fine, but I don't think you should do anything "Always" In poker.

I think Dan Harrington described it as fear of flopping. People jam their chips in pre flop, because they are scared of making difficult decisions post flop. The only problem here with flatting is you are going to get bullied off a flop with an ace or king on it. It is a close call, and very much player dependant to which one I would go for. Against a super nit I would fold.

gotta agree with tygran on this one folks. Going on stats you have to call and hope for the best. Now if you had the stats on the villian and he was reading off as a tight player... then you dont want to risk a good amount of money and find out he has kk. what a cooler. Ive ran into aa with kk quite a few times and that sucks.