$50 NLHE Full Ring: Plan was to barrel... fire the third?

acky100

acky100

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villain is like 35/12 or something not many hands.

Plan on the flop was to bet big because i'd be betting quite a lot of turns, and i want more $$$ right?

It should be hard for him to have many kings in his range here, should i of fired the third? I wasnt sure about it cause he only has like half a pot sized bet left, which does reduce my fold equity quite a bit i'd imagine.


poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 1705745
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG+1: $26.56
MP1: $19.25
MP2: $25.36
CO: $66.35
BTN: $40.23
SB: $49.88
Hero (BB): $50.00
UTG: $54.11

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BB with A :spade: J :spade:
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2, MP2 calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) 2 :diamond: 9 :club: 3 :spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, MP2 calls $3.50

Turn: ($11.25) K :diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $6.50, MP2 calls $6.50

River: ($24.25) 4 :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 checks
 
Deco

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I check/fold flop.
I tend to not c-bet low flops vs fish.

*They hit them more
*They call with overcards more
*c-betting low flops often commit us to multi street bluffs when higher cards fall and I don't like to bluff fish.


Last bullet point is the most important reason imo. Vs a normal player I triple barrel here all day long to remove underpairs/2nd pairs. Vs a fish we could be looking at someone who will never ever fold 9x here or who will have KT/KJ/KQ in their range. Not worth risking a large portion of our stack for.

Think about it our any worse hands ever folding the flop?
44/AQ are the next weakest hands after ours and I think most fish call them all day long.
 
acky100

acky100

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Okay that's interesting, does anyone else think this is a bad spot to c-bet?

I thought this was a pretty good spot for a c-bet, its not too low and its really dry. It just seems like a super standard c-bet to me for this reason, and is like the bread and butter of my game (fish limps, we raise, they fold to our c-bet)

Your post makes sense, not bluffing fish and stuff, but i find the weaker players are the ones that double barrels work on the most. I think its still a good spot to keep betting against regulars, but regulars are going to expect me to be betting the K scare card almost always so they shouldnt really worry about me holding one either. Its usually the fish that see the scare card and fold their marginal crap, i thought anyways.

Another reason i c-bet is because we have like 6 outs to good top pairs, back door flush outs and backdoor straight outs. That and a standard c-bet for me here would be like half pot so it'd only need to work 33% of the time, coupled with my actual equity makes it a no brainer for me... anyways, im not saying ure wrong, just a spot i'd always thought c-betting was better. Lets see what others think.

I wanna see what the general consensus is here for c-betting

edit: in hindsight maybe i should of done my usual half pot c-bet even if i was planning to barrel as this guy is pretty short and i could have more fold equity perhaps on the turn bet
 
bgomez89

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I check/fold flop.
I tend to not c-bet low flops vs fish.

*They hit them more
*They call with overcards more
*c-betting low flops often commit us to multi street bluffs when higher cards fall and I don't like to bluff fish.

Wouldn't getting called by other over cards be good for us(unless it's obv by aq/AK)?

I like the way you played the hand I'm just concerned about stack sizes which could make me either just c/f turn or bet smaller each street.
 
Deco

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Wouldn't getting called by other over cards be good for us(unless it's obv by aq/AK)?

From this streets perspective yes. From the entire hands perspective no.
If we see a showdown great we value towned Ace high. We're unlikely to though and will be turning our hand into a bluff (our showdown value is now irrelevant) when we barrel the turn or risk getting knocked off our hand by check/folding.

You could say it gets us more fold equity which in general is one of the main reasons we barrel the turn. Sure having a few combos of AT/AJ would be nice for our fold equity but they're not guaranteed to be there we may get calls from QT/QJ/JT/KQ/KT/KJ/K9/AdTd etc not to mention the already existent threat of 9x/TT/JJ/QQ/55-88.
It's a tricky situation because the very cards we barrel are the cards that hit overcards well in one way or another.
Not to mention when we're not barreling we can expect to be bluffed off the best hand a lot of the time.
If the board was lower so the various inside straights are not possible and the number of overcards that may miss are extended we face the annoyance of having them call again when their cards remain overcards.
Suddenly rather than commiting a small $3 c-bet to knock off overcards we are commiting half our stack in order to remove them from the $4 pot in which the fishes very wide value call range will be making money from us.

Bluffing low boards is usually a multi street commitment, one I do not like to make vs fish. Why risk $20 trying to bluff a fish when we can often check it down and either catch up vs the hands we may have previously paid off or take the pot down with the best hand (all but one unpaired hand atm). Sure we will be bluffed off the best hand sometimes but who cares, we make our money from raising AJ hitting toppair and value towning players like this. Not by bluffing half our stack away on ace high.
 
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Deco

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last post was defo tmi. I was trying to cover all counter arguments :p (fold equity overcards give + lower boards) but it's defo not what you were asking. I probably need to make my posts more readable.
Just read this bit :eek:

From this streets perspective yes. From the entire hands perspective no.
If we see a showdown great we value towned Ace high. We're unlikely to though and will be turning our hand into a bluff (our showdown value is now irrelevant) when we barrel the turn or risk getting knocked off our hand by check/folding.
 
B

baudib1

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If you're going to cbet and barrel most turns, definitely cbet smaller.
 
O

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The way I play this hand is half pot cbet, barrel the over card on the turn and cry on the river because I dont have the stones for a third barrel and fish shows 9x or TT or something.

Dunno if thats the right way, but thats definetly how this hand would go down for me!
 
WVHillbilly

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The way I play this hand is half pot cbet, barrel the over card on the turn and cry on the river because I dont have the stones for a third barrel and fish shows 9x or TT or something.

Dunno if thats the right way, but thats definetly how this hand would go down for me!
Don't cry too much on the river, the fish probably only folds 9x 50% of the time and never folds TT.

The only time you should cry on the river is when he shows A4/45.
 
acky100

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Im still struggling guys... come on...

I blame you deco :p

Right.. you say check/fold which is obviously 0 EV.

Why do i feel this is a great board to c-bet and that c-betting is going to be +EV...

Am i missing something? Can we all just confirm that i'm retarded or that deco is please... i might lose sleep on this literally.
 
dwbrown7680

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I think this is a perfectly fine board to cbet almost 100% of the time. I also think that whether or not you double barrel has to do with the player and his stats/tendencies. However I am 100% in agreement that the cbet is too big and should be in the $2.50-$3 range.
 
Cafeman

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I think this is a perfectly fine board to cbet almost 100% of the time. I also think that whether or not you double barrel has to do with the player and his stats/tendencies. However I am 100% in agreement that the cbet is too big and should be in the $2.50-$3 range.
I pretty much agree with this. Flop is dry, so a smaller cbet is fine.
 
mrmonkey

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I think (smaller) flop cbet is good here since villain is basically unknown. If we have 100+ hands on villain still showing 35/12 and other evidence of being a typical station, then I'm much less inclined to cbet unless I'm pretty sure I can shake him by firing a barrel.
 
Deco

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We can't always base our c-bet decision on a flop being 'dry' or 'wet'. We should judge a flop's danger based on our opponents range and our hand value. In this case we fold out zero better hands imo.

c/f > c/c > b/f

lol me vs the entire thread here.
outnumbered.jpg
 
acky100

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lmao! it does seem like that.. i just think it shows instant +EV half potting here against most guys. Just because of how little we need him to fold to show insta profit 33% and its gonna be less than that because we hit Aces and Jacks too.

I understand what you're saying that we dont fold out worse, but we do fold out hands that have a good chunk of equity against us
 
c9h13no3

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Easy cbet. Deco's usually just slightly nitty, most of his advice is usually good. But today he's just burning money.
 
bgomez89

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We can't always base our c-bet decision on a flop being 'dry' or 'wet'. We should judge a flop's danger based on our opponents range and our hand value. In this case we fold out zero better hands imo.

c/f > c/c > b/f

lol me vs the entire thread here.
http://ninjapants.org/files/outnumbered.jpg[/IM][/quote]

Yes we do. You don't think he folds his middle pairs once we fire a second barrel on this turn card?
 
Deco

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We should judge a flop's danger based on our opponents range and our hand value. In this case we fold out zero better hands imo.

Yes we do. You don't think he folds his middle pairs once we fire a second barrel on this turn card?



I was referring to the flop. Besides I expect a fish to call 9x/TT/JJ on the turn all day long. They probably call the river as well.
 
Jurn8

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cbet yeah, he will probs call a bunch of overs and fold turns. Its not a bad thing to cbet and get him to fold like TQ/KQ or something here.

I would cbet like 2.50 and bet the turn bigger, like 7 or 8.
As for the river I probably slow down because to him he still has 2nd pair with TT or 9x and I dont think hes folding. If we had even a few more hands on fcbet, fturncbet, WTSD or something I then see if I can jam the turn
 
B

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I mean yeah, we should cbet this flop because we cbet most flops. Not all, obviously, but a lot, and certainly ones like this. It's just that when we fire this flop we need to double-barrel good turns like this one so if we're cbetting a ton just cbet smaller.

and yeah I'd give up on the river, we have marginal showdown value and ahead of his draws.
 
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