$50 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Optimal line for value?

acky100

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Okay, discussed this hand a little with some guys on skype, all of us had different lines. Its not a particularly big spot just wondering whats your line and why?

villain was only 1 tabling, over like 20 hands was 12/12 so we can assume he's tight.

Right ill explain my line.

Flop: I dont think i can get value from any lower pocket pairs in his range, possibly can get some from a jack, but still probably only one street which i can get later and by checking i find out if he has an ace.

Turn, dont think i can get value from much here, a lower pp might call one though.

River, if he's gonna bluff catch me i mayaswel make it big as he's probably gonna call a decent sized bet and i like money!



poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players - View hand 1691399
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP1: $29.25
MP2: $28.91
CO: $50.42
BTN: $30.00
SB: $50.00
BB: $17.87
Hero (UTG): $53.50
UTG+1: $46.65

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is UTG with Q :heart: Q :club:
Hero raises to $2, 6 folds, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.25) K :heart: 5 :diamond: J :spade: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($4.25) J :diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($4.25) 8 :heart: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $4, BB calls $4
 
Deco

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Horrible turn card.
The river is pretty thin, make it a little smaller maybe we need more than just TT/99 to call here if this is going to make us money. I'm find with it as Kx and Jx are very heavily negated when he checks to us this much but there will be slowplayed Jx or value pussied Kx here and there so I want a bet small enough to lure the likes of 22 into hero calling.

Other than the sizing I play it the same.
 
dwbrown7680

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I still maintain that it's ok to cbet here and possibly take it down, however the check is perfectly fine.

Once the J pairs I'm leading out here to get value out of draws we are ahead of and lower PP's/A5, etc. I'm not against the line here just would rather take a check/bet/check line I think. Anyways just wanted to throw my .02 from the skype discussion.
 
WVHillbilly

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Flop/turn look good. I like a smaller river bet. $2 or so. I worry that you won't get the hero calls you need with a nearly PSB.
 
Reptar7

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I have never played higher than 25nl online. I am a winner at 2n-25nl.

My opinion is that you should Cbet the flop here, to fold out a lot of mid and low pockets, some Js, and other bad hands. If he calls and that J comes, then you can give up/check down. If he checks the turn and then you check, and he bets the river, then you have an akward decision to make, I would fold there. Otherwise, you check down.

As played, I really don't like that $4 stab at the end. It just seems like you are trying to take the pot away. If you had a J or K, wouldn't you be betting smaller to try to squeeze more money out of it? I would rather see a $2 value bet bluff, or a bigger bet like $6+ that is like someone with a great hand trying to look like a steal or get some money out of the pot. If you actually are winning, just check to win it. If you bet, he only calls with a better hand. I don't think he is folding a better hand to $4. He maybe could make a bad call with like TT and lower pairs, but that is the best you can hope for.
 
WVHillbilly

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I have never played higher than 25nl online. I am a winner at 2n-25nl.

My opinion is that you should Cbet the flop here, to fold out a lot of mid and low pockets, some Js, and other bad hands. If he calls and that J comes, then you can give up/check down. If he checks the turn and then you check, and he bets the river, then you have an akward decision to make, I would fold there. Otherwise, you check down.

As played, I really don't like that $4 stab at the end. It just seems like you are trying to take the pot away. If you had a J or K, wouldn't you be betting smaller to try to squeeze more money out of it? I would rather see a $2 value bet bluff, or a bigger bet like $6+ that is like someone with a great hand trying to look like a steal or get some money out of the pot. If you actually are winning, just check to win it. If you bet, he only calls with a better hand. I don't think he is folding a better hand to $4. He maybe could make a bad call with like TT and lower pairs, but that is the best you can hope for.
So much wrong with this.
Why would we want to fold out a lower pp or a J on the flop?
With the $4 "stab" at the end he is trying to rep air to get called by worse. He's not bluffing as you seem to think to fold out better.
 
c9h13no3

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We can't really rep any bluffs here. But villain almost always has like KQ, TT, or a smaller pair. So I guess we can vbet here.
 
acky100

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Damn, reptar has brought the value bet bluff back into circulation!

Hmm im still torn between the $2 bet and my $4 bet WV, after what you said about him needing to call it twice as often to be the same amount of EV :)

Thankfully villain did call, and had A8, given the info i had on him i wouldn't of assumed he would be playing A8 here so maybe a $2 river bet is better? who knows, people love calling.

So guys who like c-betting here? Why do you like c-betting here?

Oh and C9, you're totally right, if he's a thinking player (doubtful with his stacksize) i really shouldnt have any bluffs in this spot considering my position, maybe AQ but thats only a hand.
 
WVHillbilly

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Yeah can be player dependent too. Some people think the smaller bet looks scarier and call it less often than the bigger bet.
 
dwbrown7680

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I'm sticking to check/bet/bet as the optimal line in a situation like this.
 
Jurn8

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i bet 2.50 on river and play it similar, i may bet turn sometimes for value vs picked up draws, some stuff that you could get value on the turn but not the river now its bricked
 
B

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You should bet this flop when you raise UTG and end up HU and/or any time you raise and get flatted from the blind. From villain's perspective there are just not many Kx hands someone can have and be real happy about calling when we have about 27 nut combos to his 6.

As played river bet is good although smaller will get called a lot more often.
 
Jurn8

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You should bet this flop when you raise UTG and end up HU and/or any time you raise and get flatted from the blind. From villain's perspective there are just not many Kx hands someone can have and be real happy about calling when we have about 27 nut combos to his 6.

As played river bet is good although smaller will get called a lot more often.

we get value from..........
 
dwbrown7680

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What makes you think you can get 2 streets of value from worse here? I just can't see it.

You're at least going to get one street of value by taking this line, even if he folds river. We'll be looked up by so much air/draws/low pp's that we're at least going to get some value out of it.
 
WVHillbilly

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You should bet this flop when you raise UTG and end up HU and/or any time you raise and get flatted from the blind. From villain's perspective there are just not many Kx hands someone can have and be real happy about calling when we have about 27 nut combos to his 6.

As played river bet is good although smaller will get called a lot more often.
So you're bluffing?
 
Reptar7

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Why would we want to fold out a lower pp or a J on the flop?

Well, I just meant as opposed to letting them draw for free. You think it is better to let everyone with worse hands draw for free here? I don't mind bad hands calling, but make em pay. Why not just end the hand on the flop and take the $2 profit anyways if they fold? Or if he calls you can narrow the range and have a slightly better understanding of what is going on. I'm a micro cash player so I just don't like letting people draw for free. I end the hand when I'm ahead or gain more info. Maybe I am out of my depth at these stakes tho. Maybe he already had enough info on this guy and had his range narrowed.

With the $4 "stab" at the end he is trying to rep air to get called by worse. He's not bluffing as you seem to think to fold out better.

I didn't think he was bluffing. I think it looks like he is taking a stab at it, but in reality he was making a value bet that I don't really understand and I'm not sure about. Sounds like he isn't sure about it either. That $4 almost never folds out a better hand. But when called, I think the QQ is beat more often than not, but it must be close, like 45-55. If that is true, then he is better off checking. Maybe at these stakes hands like TT and lower pairs always call it though? I don't have much experience above 10nl. Played some 25nl, but that's it. Can't believe the guy had A8 and called. He must have thought that $4 was really a bluff stab with absolute air.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well, I just meant as opposed to letting them draw for free. You think it is better to let everyone with worse hands draw for free here? I don't mind bad hands calling, but make em pay. Why not just end the hand on the flop and take the $2 profit anyways if they fold? Or if he calls you can narrow the range and have a slightly better understanding of what is going on. I'm a micro cash player so I just don't like letting people draw for free. I end the hand when I'm ahead or gain more info. Maybe I am out of my depth at these stakes tho. Maybe he already had enough info on this guy and had his range narrowed.
There really aren't any draws our opponent can have here with any more than 3 outs (Ax). We have 2 queens so that eliminates 1/2 his possible gs str8 draws with AQ/QT.

So here the chances of getting outdrawn are slim, we rarely get much value from hands that we beat, and we allow our opponent to make mistakes/improve to a 2nd best hand occasionally by checking the flop.
 
Reptar7

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There really aren't any draws our opponent can have here with any more than 3 outs (Ax). We have 2 queens so that eliminates 1/2 his possible gs str8 draws with AQ/QT.

So here the chances of getting outdrawn are slim, we rarely get much value from hands that we beat, and we allow our opponent to make mistakes/improve to a 2nd best hand occasionally by checking the flop.

If he has a worse hand, I agree the odds of us being outdrawn are slim (like you said). But isn't that a good reason to cbet and take the $2 profit or charge the draws to play?

Why would you not cbet? Are we slow rolling this guy by not cbetting? or is there just no +EV to be had by betting?

I know you have tried to explain, but could you explain further why no cbet? I don't understand.
 
WVHillbilly

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If he has a worse hand, I agree the odds of us being outdrawn are slim (like you said). But isn't that a good reason to cbet and take the $2 profit or charge the draws to play?

Why would you not cbet? Are we slow rolling this guy by not cbetting? or is there just no +EV to be had by betting?
Our hand is too valuable to bet as a bluff (he's not folding anything better anyway) and we're unlikely to get value from worse, so betting the flop accomplishes nothing. We want value, not to make him fold everything we beat. Yes he probably calls a flop bet with Jx but he's probably more than willing to do that on later streets too so we're not losing value there except for the rare occasion where we get outdrawn and again that won't happen enough to make betting better than checking.
 
Reptar7

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Our hand is too valuable to bet as a bluff (he's not folding anything better anyway) and we're unlikely to get value from worse, so betting the flop accomplishes nothing. We want value, not to make him fold everything we beat. Yes he probably calls a flop bet with Jx but he's probably more than willing to do that on later streets too so we're not losing value there except for the rare occasion where we get outdrawn and again that won't happen enough to make betting better than checking.

TY, I like that answer. Easy to understand.

Would you play this the same way at 2nl?

And what do you do if he bets out, like min or pot?
 
tenbob

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What makes you think you can get 2 streets of value from worse here? I just can't see it.

Neither can I. I also think that river bet size is brutal bad. What are you doing with it, value ? Bluff ? I dont know so bet pot (prob).

Again its plan the hand, bet/fold the river, and why you are betting so much is beyond me.

Just for an FYI, taking a winrate of 2bb/100 how much do you think that one river bet affects it over 10K hands ? Considering that we rarely get to this spot . (Also consider that ive just blown $90 on whiskey and can still type)
 
WVHillbilly

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Yep. Same at 2nl.
If he bets the turn we call. If he bets turn and river we fold without a read that he's super aggro/bluffy.
 
jbbb

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Would have taken the same line.
At 2NL I probably go for two streets of value though (turn + river). However the J pairing sucks so it'd probably be villain dependant.#
I'm going OT, but back on topic, I like the line but probably bet a little smaller on the river.
 
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