$50 NLHE Full Ring: Meh, think i played this badly

acky100

acky100

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Didn't really know where i stood once he called the flop bet, thinking maybe it would of been better to just check fold the turn, which seems tight but... board is a bit ugh and he probably isn't gonna get out of line on this board?

Villain is 11/9 over 1700 hands, we are like 6handed but i doubt he's loosening up tons. I've never seen him raise a cbet or ch/raise, but i cant imagine him flatting a set here? but you never know :/

Villains cold call is 5%, he wouldnt strike me as being crazy, i think i called the turn because he bets 60% vs missed turn cbets when IP... he also only folds to flop cbets 45%, but again.. id expect him to play a lot more straightforward with a fish in the pot...


poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 1689258
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $26.27
UTG+1: $43.00
MP: $46.48
Hero (CO): $49.75
BTN: $53.61
SB: $52.47
BB: $20.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with A :club: T :club:
2 folds, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, BTN calls $2.25, 2 folds, MP calls $1.75

Flop: ($7.50) 8 :spade: T :spade: 7 :spade: (3 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $4.50, BTN calls $4.50, MP folds

Turn: ($16.50) 8 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $8, Hero calls $8

River: ($32.50) 4 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $14, Hero folds
 
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c9h13no3

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I might not bet the flop, since its sort of a BA/WB spot, and we're always getting called. But check/calling this board is kinda gross as well. If we were in position, I'd certainly check back, but as played it doesn't matter much IMO. So betting's fine.

Turn looks super standard.

River seems like a clear bet, Clarkmiester theorem & all that.
 
acky100

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Cool, never heard of that theorem, but reading about it now it does make sense to take a stab as a bluff here if we are going to try to take the pot away at any point. Check raising the river would bad i think but betting out i can definitely see merit too, as he is presumably folding everything but flushes.

i agree check calling would be gross here, which is why i went for a bet, i dont expect these 11/9's to call on this flop a whole bunch due to table dynamics, it clearly looks like im wanting the fish to call so if he's a reg with half a brain he should atleast be putting me on TP here i think, or atleast a good draw... which he probably is capable of putting me on.

One type of hand i think he would play this way would be flush draws himself, he wouldnt really have any merit to raising my bet with them especially considering a fish is with us... would this change your mind on betting out on the river? Thanks!
 
jbbb

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River seems like a clear bet, Clarkmiester theorem & all that.

Yep, this. He only bets $14 so you could probably bet about $14 on the river and he has to fold anything that isn't a flush and you he only has to fold very little (can't work it out) for the play to be profitable.
 
acky100

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Yeah, good point. He would only have to fold like 30% its a line i didnt even think about because, its so unusual, sounds good though
 
jbbb

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If you bet $14 on the river, how often does he have to fold to make it profitable?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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If you bet $14 on the river, how often does he have to fold to make it profitable?

0 = F*32.50 - (1-F)*14
14-14F = 32.5F
14 = 46.5F
F = 14/46.5 = 30.1%
 
dwbrown7680

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Solid strat in this thread, good read.
 
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baudib1

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Turn is a super-snap fold IMO, not really close.

I realize with the turn pairing there are very few combos that villain is repping, but he is extremely tight.
If you analyze his range, even considering it may widen slightly OTB in a short-handed game, we have basically no equity vs. his value range. If he happens to be semibluffing, he has a ton of equity against our TPTK/no redraw.

So after he calls flop and bets turn, it's a WB/BA (well-behind/barely ahead) situation. This guy is probably not semibluffing tbh...His range is not going to contain very many single-spade hands. Where he widens his range is going to be in suited hands; he's a lot more likely to have A5 spades than KJo here. If he were more aggro and more likely to float and semibluff with, say, KQo with a spade, I'd feel a lot happier about c/c (or, more likely, b/f).

This guy has a flopped flush or 77 about 90% of the time imo, which leaves us dead.
 
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I'm not sure what your intention was for calling the turn and folding the river bet was?

Was hoping to hit another 10 or any ace non spade? I think the turn is the ultimate decision here, if you intend on calling the turn, you have to call the river or you're just spewing.

I think leading the flop is ok and leading any none spade turn card.

I think I'd have to be either raising or folding the turn, not check/calling, any spade has you folding like it did on the river. He could quite easily hold a 10,J/Q,10/K,10 sort of hand with a spade.
 
acky100

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I'm not sure what your intention was for calling the turn and folding the river bet was?

Was hoping to hit another 10 or any ace non spade? I think the turn is the ultimate decision here, if you intend on calling the turn, you have to call the river or you're just spewing.

I think leading the flop is ok and leading any none spade turn card.

I think I'd have to be either raising or folding the turn, not check/calling, any spade has you folding like it did on the river. He could quite easily hold a 10,J/Q,10/K,10 sort of hand with a spade.

At the time i called the turn because i figured if he has one of these type of hands with a single spade that you mention, i'm still ahead and that he wouldnt bet the river again without a hand. Raising the turn would be pretty terrible i think as he's just gonna fold out some stuff we beat and then laugh at us when he has flopped a straight.

The guy is really tight though and there is a fish in the hand so he will play more straight forward, maybe the turn should of just been a fold, but unless he has a flopped flush i dont think theres all that much to be worried about there, but yeah i think i wanted the river to not be a spade and then me maybe catch his bluff or something... i still dont like the turn either, maybe should of just gave the 11/9 credit for a better hand there, but his bet sizing was pretty small for the texture which was maybe levelling me also.
 
CheckraiseLife

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yea not a fan of the turn call myself, against his stats i dont like it, in theory i say fold, however if i was playing this hand onestly i'd probably be tempted to call turn and i definatley wouldn't fire river....this guy an those stats
IS NEVER bluffing, hes called and bet all the way here, so have you, so hes checking marginal value back alot, hes betting his nice hands
flush, house, overpair he may get stubborn with...like maybe betting this river against some reg tool is good, but againt mister nit who's been waitign all day to hit the big one, hes not folding with his big one.. lol
 
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baudib1

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Here's some free advice that will save you a lot of money:

DON'T CHECK-CALL THE TURN

As a general rule at these stakes, you should almost never be in a position to check the turn with the intention of calling.

Here's why:
1. We should be playing in position most of the time.
2. The times that we are in EP we have opened for a raise and have the betting lead/iniative.
--- A. When we raise preflop we should usually bet the flop
--- B. When we bet the flop we should usually bet the turn.
--- C. If we bet the flop and decide for some reason not to bet the turn, it should basically be because we are giving up.

While we might run into some fish who get stubborn postflop, we should pretty much always be value-betting them.

If we have showdown value vs. a nit but decide it's prudent to check -- let's say we raise with KK, nit calls and calls us on AA2 flop -- when we check the nit is going to check back his showdown value hands and bet when we are crushed.

So clearly we cannot c/c vs. a nit.

If we have showdown value vs. a LAG and decide to check the turn, we cannot call when he bets because we will likely face an even bigger bet on the river. So clearly we should not be c/c vs. a LAG either.

Granted, there are going to be monkeys who just auto-bet whenever someone checks to them. So we should check some pretty good hands against them once in a while, but generally you should have a pretty good read with this -- a timing tell, history, betsizing tells, etc., that tells you he is just stabbing because you showed weakness.
 
Jurn8

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saying c/c turn is bad because we play in position just makes no sense at all (we simply cant avoid in when being in EP and MP) its not like we are flatting OOP in blinds or something

c/c turns vs mass tabling regs who will float on dry boards with under pairs and bet when checked to just because , well theres no reason to bet is a good line. It's something I take advantage of quite abit as I only 9 - 12 table so I can pick up/note take on it.

EG. AK on K34r cbet then c/c turn , obvious float spot and for some unknown reason at FR villians will bet like 66 - QQ here. You get way more value on dry boards then just firing off 3 streets as they are folding pretty much all of their range on turn to a double. They also think you would double a K here twice like always because "you has top pearrrr"
Against weak tight regs which I would say alot of the reg pool are I would prefer I double with air, I know we dont rep much to hand readers but our line looks pretty strong firing here, much like the nit in the hands turn bet
 
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baudib1

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Mass-tabling nitty 50 NL regs are betting 88-QQ on K43r on the turn??

I really don't think so but if you say it I'll believe it. But that would be a pretty specific read. Also, AK making TPTK on dry boards is a pretty unique/special spot; for sure there are plenty of times to check the turn with the intention of going for 2 streets of value vs. 88-QQ because bet/check/bet is the most FOS/tilting line ever and yeah, we get looked up more often than on double-barrels. It's not like having an overpair because obviously are hits are not concealed.

But if we check the turn and the nit starts making noise like he wants to play for stacks it might be time to re-evaluate.
 
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NoOneYouKnow

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I don't think we should ever just throw check/calling out the window. I think there are plenty of opportunities to use it, and I think the player base in general is much more sophisticated than you have surmised. There are so many players, both regs and fish alike who will insta bet when checked to. In fact, without a check/calling turn range, these non-thinking insta betting players are actually exploiting you knowing that when you check you will either raise monsters, or fold.

As for the hand, I am not a huge fan of the turn check call, especially against this kind of player with a very weak hand.

I think the reg is more likely to flat this flop with As and Tx a ton trying to bring the 'fish' along for the ride. I really don't think we are being floated with air or weak pairs much. With that in mind I would prefer to see a turn barrel as the paired board doesn't seem to hit his range much and seriously devalues and spade draws (especially given the 'fish' folded as well). If we do manage to bring along weaker Tx (which I doubt), it is just a bonus. River would seem to be an easy give up, I don't think you are even beating bluffs at this point.
 
JOEBOB69

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I don't mind the c/c on the turn my self.Even if he is normal weak passive he's not a moron and knows it's +ev to fire a bet after the missed turn cbet with any draw.
 
WVHillbilly

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Pretty much hate the turn ch/call. You'd have been better off just betting again but I'd prefer to just ch/fold since he's probably not betting his draws but might call your turn bet with them.
 
JOEBOB69

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The only way i see your turn bet getting called that your ahead is by some combo draw like 9 with a spade.But by checking you can induce a lot of draws to bet here.
 
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baudib1

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I think the reg is more likely to flat this flop with As and Tx a ton trying to bring the 'fish' along for the ride. I really don't think we are being floated with air or weak pairs much. With that in mind I would prefer to see a turn barrel as the paired board doesn't seem to hit his range much and seriously devalues and spade draws (especially given the 'fish' folded as well). If we do manage to bring along weaker Tx (which I doubt), it is just a bonus. River would seem to be an easy give up, I don't think you are even beating bluffs at this point.

What As and Tx hands does he have? Very few.
 
WVHillbilly

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The only way i see your turn bet getting called that your ahead is by some combo draw like 9 with a spade.But by checking you can induce a lot of draws to bet here.
That's just it, he doesn't have a lot of draws. In fact he has MAYBE 6 drawing combos with the As (AQ/AK). The rest of his range is basically overpairs (JJ/QQ), sets, and 2 flushes. He might occasionally get frisky with 99 as long as he has the 9s.

This isn't some fish who calls with any 2 suited.
 
JOEBOB69

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Well acky said villains fold to cbet was 45% and bet vs missed turn cbet was 60%.With that given this is basically a 6max table and villain is on the BTN i just think he is calling pre and on the flop/betting the turn way wider than his 11/9 stats would suggest.Now with that said it is hard to find a 9 in his range besides 99 with spade ,But i do see a ton of Asx in his range besides AK/AQ etc.
 
WVHillbilly

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Nah 5% cold call is probably 22-JJ/AQ+ depending on if he 3bet or flats AK could be even fewer combos with As.

Oh yeah and he doesn't fold to cbets because his range is strong. FR nits don't float/steal on the turn very often.
 
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JOEBOB69

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I guess i could be giving a FR nit to much credit to widen up there game by position and less people at the table.I would like to see those stats acky gave by position (CO/BTN) rather than over all though.Also throw in his 3bet % to see if he is flating JJ/QQ in position or 3betting.
 
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