$50 NLHE Full Ring: KK oop in 4-bet pot hates the flop.

benevg

benevg

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full tilt poker $50.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1177944
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP2: $28.60
Hero (CO): $64.00
BTN: $50.00
SB: $39.90
BB: $25.85
UTG: $15.10
UTG+1: $64.95
UTG+2: $61.65
MP1: $19.20

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with K
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K
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5 folds, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $4.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $13, BTN calls $8.50

Flop: ($26.75) J
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Q
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T
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(2 players)

Hero ???


i am fairly certain i made the right decision in-game, but this hand will bug me for a while yet. the only worse flop i can think of includes the :qd4: as well.

so... lines?

(edit) i have less than 100 hands on villain, where he has played something like 14/10, no special reads. does this matter at all in this hand?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Bleh, I figured we had more equity than 24%...

76.1% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
23.9% { KK }

Gross. Problem is, I can't figure out what he'd flat a 4-bet with anyways, so I have a hard time narrowing his range down to TT+/AK. If you add in AQ, our equity skyrockets to 43%. I mean, what do TAGs flat 4-bets with anyways?!

So my original thought was to bet/call it off, figuring that we'd have at least the ~1.7:1 equity we'd need even against a tight range. But now we obviously need villain to have some other junk in his range to make this a bet/callable board. And I think its likely villain has some non-premium holdings here, and we should still probably ship it. But its not as obvious as I first thought.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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um... which hand of villain that calls a 4-bet do i beat, exactly? :confused:
The fact that villain called the 4bet means he's unlikely to be very good imo (unless you 4bet bluff like a mad man). Against a range that includes AQ you have 43% equity. Against a range that includes some 2pair type hands (KQ/QJ) but not AQ you have 36% equity. It's only against a JJ+/AK that you should ch/f. The fact that he flatted the 4bet makes me unwilling to narrow his range that much. With the amount of $$s in the pot I'm never folding. bet/call imo
 
Sysvr4

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If you're going to bet/call it off anyway, how is open shoving a worse option? Honest question.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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If you're going to bet/call it off anyway, how is open shoving a worse option? Honest question.

Because if we bet less than a shove villain can potentially spazz shove but if we shove he might just fold everything that we do beat. It's probably pretty close either way but if we are ahead I think giving him every opportunity to put his money in is the way to go.
 
Sysvr4

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Because if we bet less than a shove villain can potentially spazz shove but if we shove he might just fold everything that we do beat. It's probably pretty close either way but if we are ahead I think giving him every opportunity to put his money in is the way to go.

I think you're right in that we never get called by worse. Now that I think about it, the only real advantage to a shove over a bet/call is we have some fold equity against a (very) strangely played AA. If 99 is in his range, it's probably a wash on both strategies.

Alright, that tangent aside, please allow me to show you my inner nit: I think I'd check/call a small bet and check/fold a large bet on the flop. If I thought I could get to a very cheap showdown, great, but I'm not willing to commit my stack to this pot on the flop.

I submit myself to a beating with the lag bat now.
 
B

baudib1

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I check-fold this flop with KK/AA
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I think you're right in that we never get called by worse. Now that I think about it, the only real advantage to a shove over a bet/call is we have some fold equity against a (very) strangely played AA. If 99 is in his range, it's probably a wash on both strategies.

Alright, that tangent aside, please allow me to show you my inner nit: I think I'd check/call a small bet and check/fold a large bet on the flop. If I thought I could get to a very cheap showdown, great, but I'm not willing to commit my stack to this pot on the flop.

I submit myself to a beating with the lag bat now.

The problem is there is no getting to a "cheap" show down here. The pot is $27 and villain has $37 left. So how small do you think he'll bet on the flop that he won't put the rest in on the turn/river?
 
Sysvr4

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The problem is there is no getting to a "cheap" show down here. The pot is $27 and villain has $37 left. So how small do you think he'll bet on the flop that he won't put the rest in on the turn/river?

I think it very rarely happens, but my point was simply that I'm not folding to a $3 bet the guy makes with 88/99 in position as some half-hearted bluff attempt. I'm check/folding to any reasonable bet.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I think it very rarely happens, but my point was simply that I'm not folding to a $3 bet the guy makes with 88/99 in position as some half-hearted bluff attempt. I'm check/folding to any reasonable bet.
If you're check folding it should be because you don't put AQ in his 4bet flatting range. I happen to think it's there so I'm not folding. I'm not thrilled to get it in here but I do think it's +EV.
 
Z

Zybomb

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I'd bet/call.

Flatting a 4 bet for 25% of your stack probably leads to me to believe that he isn't that good and that his range isn't just weighted to TT+ AK. We have 10 clean outs against TT-QQ and I don't think anyone flats AK (obviously the worst holding for villain to have) here hardly ever. If we knew that TT+ AK was his full range it'd be a different story, but I guess I just don't see too much 4 bet flatting from thinking players when you're playing 100 Bigs deep... like others have said adding in just AQ to the range bumps it over 40%
 
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