$50 NLHE Full Ring: interesting tp in 3bet pot hand

$50 NL HE Full Ring: interesting tp in 3bet pot hand

villain is 13/8 with 33% steal from co, and 100% fold to 3bet over ~500 hands

my stats over ~40 hands at table 17/17/ 7%3bet

poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP1: $49.25 (98.5 bb)
MP2: $10 (20 bb)
MP3: $10.95 (21.9 bb)
CO: $50.50 (101 bb)
Hero (BTN): $55.40 (110.8 bb)
SB: $3 (6 bb)
BB: $49.25 (98.5 bb)
UTG+1: $30.10 (60.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q K
4 folds, CO raises to $2, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, CO calls $5

Flop: ($14.75) T J Q (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($14.75) T (2 players)
CO bets $6.50, Hero calls $6.50

River: ($27.75) 6 (2 players)
CO bets $11.50, Hero folds


The bet sizing completely throws me off here, but does this line look ok?

Weird bet size on the river, unless it means "I know you're afraid of this board and I have a big hand and hope you'll pay off a tiny bet or shove over top"

I don't know that there's much that flats a 3 bet OOP that we're ahead of; 99/AJs, and I dunno that they stab at the turn and then make a small bet at the river. Line looks fine to me.

why are you 3-betting KQ here?

Also this is a boat or broadway pretty much always, imo.

dsvw56 said:

why are you 3-betting KQ here?

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Ditto as much as I love 3betting a guy with a healthy steal% and a 100% fold to 3bet we don't want to do it with KQ as its gunna get us in tricky spots when he calls as were nearly always gunna be dominated.

3bet this guys 3bets with prospective hands or even random trash but not hands like KQ were your gunna get outkicked and into trouble.
Call or fold this hand preflop.

why would i not 3bet here when they are opening so wide and fold ridiculously well? I'm 3betting pretty much atc and just happen to have k,q this time hence the major slowdown postflop

switch0723 said:

why would i not 3bet here when they are opening so wide and fold ridiculously well? I'm 3betting pretty much atc and just happen to have k,q this time hence the major slowdown postflop

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Because you have so much postflop value.

switch0723 said:

why would i not 3bet here when they are opening so wide and fold ridiculously well? I'm 3betting pretty much atc and just happen to have k,q this time hence the major slowdown postflop

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cuz when you do it with trash or connectors and stuff you wont get into nearly as tricky spots if he were to call?

you guys are missing the point im trying to make, im not 3betting k,q coz its a cool hand, im 3 betting it coz i am 3betting a ton of hands in this spot, and k,q just happens to be the 1 i am holding this hand

switch0723 said:

you guys are missing the point im trying to make, im not 3betting k,q coz its a cool hand, im 3 betting it coz i am 3betting a ton of hands in this spot, and k,q just happens to be the 1 i am holding this hand

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Yes, but there's far more value in flatting.

ChuckTs says it better than I can :

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/blind-defense-calling-152471/post-1190924.html

switch0723 said:

you guys are missing the point im trying to make, im not 3betting k,q coz its a cool hand, im 3 betting it coz i am 3betting a ton of hands in this spot, and k,q just happens to be the 1 i am holding this hand

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^ the point is not that this is a good guy to 3b ATC with, the point is that KQ in position against a player like that has more value if you just flat it and play poker than if you 3b where you will either 1) get a fold which is losing value, 2) get a call and often end up in a weird spot like this or 3) get 4b by better hands and be forced to fold

sigh ive been losing a ton of value in the past then

i think you can flat or 3bet, i flat most of the time. the fact that you've been active and this isn't quite the type of hand you want to not be getting respect with, i probably am most likely to flat it there, but 3betting has merit

Tygran said:

^ the point is not that this is a good guy to 3b ATC with, the point is that KQ in position against a player like that has more value if you just flat it and play poker than if you 3b where you will either 1) get a fold which is losing value, 2) get a call and often end up in a weird spot like this or 3) get 4b by better hands and be forced to fold

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there are benefits of 3betting KQ vs. 3betting ATC. KQ has lots o equity vs. JJ-88, KQ offers card removal against some hands he'd be able to continue with (KK/QQ/AK/AQ). getting a fold isn't necessarily losing value 'cause by flatting we miss flop most of the time and get the pot taken away by an inferior hand/a hand that would have folded to a 3bet. and i don't think its that weird of a spot, pretty standard river fold, his range is pretty well-defined thx to the 3bet

Tygran said:

or 3) get 4b by better hands and be forced to fold

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is this really a bad thing? virtually all of the hands he'd 4bet, we don't really want to see a flop with because we'd be in a really bad reverse implied odds spot where we flop top pair and it's no good and we pay off at least 2 bets if not more. sometimes we'll make trips/two pair against AA or something, but it's far more likely we make 1 pair

3betting is just so immediately +EV because he's folding so much. flatting really doesn't put us in that great of a spot, we usually miss and there aren't that many flops where we win much. flatting is definitely +EV as well, but i think it's pretty close between the two options. if guys behind me are somewhat likely to squeeze if i flat (its a pretty good spot based on stats), then 3betting becomes even more justified

Put me in the corner of being indifferent about 3-betting pre or flatting. I don't think it's bad to 3bet, I don't think it's bad to flat. As combu (I'll start calling you something else once I figure out what to call you because "blanko" just doesn't feel right. not yet.) said getting 4bet is almost good for us because the stuff he 4bets is the kind of hand we don't want to see a flop with anyway.

Flatting KQo on the button isn't going to have a huge EV postflop either. Although I can't filter for situations versus opponents similar to this opponent, I'm showing a net loss for flatting KQo OTB vs CO opens this year. Since we "know" that 3-betting is immediately profitable, there's definitely nothing wrong with that line.

Also, if you're going to make a fold on this river I think it's better to minraise/fold turn and check back river.