$50 NLHE Full Ring: Easy decision?

Shady Vision

Shady Vision

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Total posts
152
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 18/8/3

Carbon Poker - $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem (9 players)
Party Poker Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

BU: $57.70
BU: $53.42
UTG: $20.00
MP: $92.99
MP+1: $65.86
MP+2: $49.50
LP Hero: $68.20
CO: $96.44
BTN: $58.62

Pre-flop: ($0.75) Hero is LP and dealt :9s4: :9h4:
4 folds, Hero raises $1.00, 2 folds, BU calls $0.75, BU calls $0.50
Typical raise from LP with decent PP.

Flop: ($3.00) :qs4: :as4: :ks4: (3 players)
BU bets $0.50, BU calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
Min bet all around seems fishy... easy to make the call here with outs on the way or top hand against a missed flop.

Turn: ($4.50) :qs4: :as4: :ks4: :10h4: (3 players)
BU bets $0.50, BU calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50
Again, easy call here, again it seems suspicious.

River: ($6.00) :qs4: :as4: :ks4: :10h4: :js4: (3 players)
BU bets $6.00, BU raises $24.00 Hero ???
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Total posts
557
Chips
0
I wouldnt call it a typical raise. why did you minraise pre? I dont really know what to say about the river.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Hate the min raise preflop.
Ez fold on the river.
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
It's hard to give credit to 1 card and for a royal flush. Not sure what else they could be doing it with though unless they're misreading the board.

Why did you min-raise pre?
 
B

BigBelle

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2010
Total posts
139
Chips
0
I think its an easy fold. You could have 2nd best hand and it could cost you alot to find out.
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
I think the only reason it should be so easy to fold this river is the fact that we have only invested 4bbs into this pot so far and it is going to cost us the rest of our stack, basically on a coinflip decision.
 
kleitches

kleitches

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Total posts
982
Chips
0
I don't see how the min-raise is horrible at all. It depends on the players that are in the blinds, but if they're tight and don't alter their calling ranges at all, I don't think there's much of a difference between min-raising it and 3xing it. Even if they have wide calling ranges in the blinds, you can still build a nice pot and get stacks in if you hit your set.
 
kleitches

kleitches

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Total posts
982
Chips
0
Hate the min raise preflop.
Ez fold on the river.

Just for the record WV, I think it'd be help if you explained why you hate his raise size. Not saying you're wrong, just that it would be useful for others that read this thread to understand why certain lines are encouraged/discouraged.
 
ALL IN CLUBS

ALL IN CLUBS

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 12, 2010
Total posts
1,423
Chips
0
im calling, only one card beats you and its worth $24.00 to see a Royal Flush :)

:10s4: :js4: :qs4: :ks4: :as4:
 
kleitches

kleitches

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Total posts
982
Chips
0
im calling, only one card beats you and its worth $24.00 to see a Royal Flush :)

:10s4: :js4: :qs4: :ks4: :as4:

The only Royal Flush I want to see is the one I have. I'm assuming you're just kidding about actually wanting to pay to see someone beating you.

Anyway yeah this is an easy fold. Especially since it went bet---> raise.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Sure. Min raising makes it really hard to get stacks in when we do hit our set. For example if we min raise preflop and get a call from the BB (pot $2.50). We flop our set and bet pot on all streets and get called all the way the final pot is $67.50.

Make it $1.50 preflop and the same action postflop gets the pot to $94.50.

Make it $2 and we can easily get our full stack in.

Min betting also gives the blinds decent odds to call and our hand is fairly vulnerable to a lot of flops.
 
kleitches

kleitches

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Total posts
982
Chips
0
Those are valid points and it's the reason I'm 3xing most of the time. But if I'm ever min-raising, (almost always in later position, rarely in EP), it's because I want to create deeper effective stack sizes. If the blinds are fishy, they'll either a) fail to defend their blind, therefore making it cheaper for us to steal or b) call and give us a better chance to exploit our post flop edge. If they're bad, they'll make bigger mistakes that we can capitalize on with a higher SPR.

Even if by min-raising we're giving the blinds decent odds to call, that doesn't change the fact that our hand is still going to be vulnerable on most flops. I think what's more important is the edge we have post flop.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
I actually have started opening 3.5x (used to be 3x) almost always. Playing big pots in position is good.
 
soccerrunner8098

soccerrunner8098

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Total posts
216
Awards
1
Chips
0
I think the only reason it should be so easy to fold this river is the fact that we have only invested 4bbs into this pot so far and it is going to cost us the rest of our stack, basically on a coinflip decision.

Bingo. Although I'd still be tempted to call here, but in the end probably wouldn't because of the reason I haven't put much into this hand to begin with. I wouldn't call it an easy fold. It would suck to get away from this hand so it would def take some thought
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Ask yourself how many villains at 50nl raise ANYTHING less than the nuts here?

Answer: Not nearly enough to make calling with the 2nd nuts profitable.
 
Shady Vision

Shady Vision

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2006
Total posts
152
Chips
0
Well being new to the limit I didn't give him enough credit for his hand and paid to see that royal take the pot.

I really like the way you laid out your explanation for bet sizing, made it easy to see just how much value is lost by betting smaller pre flop. Although seeing a cheap flop in hopes of hitting the set is nice, by paying a little more up front the returns are multiplied even more so.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Well being new to the limit I didn't give him enough credit for his hand and paid to see that royal take the pot.

I really like the way you laid out your explanation for bet sizing, made it easy to see just how much value is lost by betting smaller pre flop. Although seeing a cheap flop in hopes of hitting the set is nice, by paying a little more up front the returns are multiplied even more so.

I think this is a clear fold at all limits unless you know your opponent is just a sicko and might be capable of bluffing here often enough to make calling correct.

Also something I should have said earlier about bet sizing preflop is that we don't have to just think about hitting our set to make betting bigger better. There are going to be lots of flops were we hit nothing, cbet and take the pot. When we bet bigger preflop we're going to be winning more in these scenarios as well and generally bad players are calling with the same range in the blinds whether you bet 2x or 4x.
 
Top