$50 NLHE Full Ring: AK squeeze, unknown villain, flop decision

$50 NL HE Full Ring: AK squeeze, unknown villain, flop decision

Have ~6 hands on villain at this point so no real reads. He has made a couple of fishy looking plays so far though but I haven't seen any showdowns with him so don't know much of anything for certain.

Should I be shoving this flop like 100% of the time here? If not, why and what would you do?

Keep in mind the pot is $23 and villains remaining stack is also $23.

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HAND #1
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party poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $50.75 (101.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $52.40 (104.8 bb)
UTG+2: $25.35 (50.7 bb)
MP1: $33 (66 bb)
MP2: $58.60 (117.2 bb)
MP3: $51.20 (102.4 bb)
CO: $56.65 (113.3 bb)
BTN: $33.50 (67 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K♠ A♠
UTG+2 raises to $1.50, MP1 calls $1.50, 4 folds, SB calls $1.25, Hero raises to $10, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $8.50, SB folds

Flop: ($23) 9♠ J♦ 5♦ (2 players)
Hero ???

You kind of set yourself up to shove the flop with your large 3bet preflop, at least I'm assuming that was your plan. So I'd go ahead and stick with that, You got overs, back door flush and straight draws in case you are called.

Richyl2008 said:

You kind of set yourself up to shove the flop with your large 3bet preflop, at least I'm assuming that was your plan. So I'd go ahead and stick with that, You got overs, back door flush and straight draws in case you are called.

Click to expand...

Yeah.. I'm not real sure why I made it that big preflop.

That was admittedly too big, should have been smaller.

Pretty sure shoving it is standard given the pot/stack sizes on the flop just wanted to double check.

Vs an unknown utg raise I guess you could make an argument for just calling. Another option could be to just 3bet to 4.50 or 5 where you can get in enough of the effective stacks to play for stacks if you hit tptk, flush draw or to have room to bet/fold if you miss. Fwiw I don't hate your line, i've used it myself, but it does bring some variance,

Tygran said:

Have ~6 hands on villain at this point so no real reads. He has made a couple of fishy looking plays so far though but I haven't seen any showdowns with him so don't know much of anything for certain.

Should I be shoving this flop like 100% of the time here? If not, why and what would you do?

Keep in mind the pot is $23 and villains remaining stack is also $23.

--------------------
HAND #1
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Party Poker, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $50.75 (101.5 bb)
Hero (BB): $52.40 (104.8 bb)
UTG+2: $25.35 (50.7 bb)
MP1: $33 (66 bb)
MP2: $58.60 (117.2 bb)
MP3: $51.20 (102.4 bb)
CO: $56.65 (113.3 bb)
BTN: $33.50 (67 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K♠ A♠
UTG+2 raises to $1.50, MP1 calls $1.50, 4 folds, SB calls $1.25, Hero raises to $10, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls $8.50, SB folds

Flop: ($23) 9♠ J♦ 5♦ (2 players)
Hero ???

Click to expand...

You stated that "this player made fishy looking plays"

Look, I really have no clue, what your plan was for that massive over bet, but I seriously can not comprehend the reason as to why you would seriously contiplate on shoving this flop? You have'nt hit anything not to mention that massive over bet looks like a person who seriously did'nt want a caller in the first place, also the words out of your mouth was fishy player? So in closing shoving this is like, so mind twisting I can hardly even begin to comprehen this move.

Plz anyone tell me why would we want to shove it again? Also fishy players tend to have such a wide range of hands, that shoving this is almost always asking for a problem, but heck I'm not that good in cash in the first place

naruto_miu said:

You stated that "this player made fishy looking plays"

Click to expand...

I also said I can't really conclusively say anything about the player type. He had been involved in 2 of those 6 hands, and this was the 2nd time he had limped behind and called a raise after original limper had folded. Not very many people do that very often.

Combine with the fact he was sitting there with 60ish BB and that starts to look like a fish. Good players rarely are playing with stacks of that size.

However.. I have 6 hands and nothing absolutely conclusive so this is nothing but a first impression. I wasn't putting a ton of stock into any reads and essentially treating him as an unknown at this point.

naruto_miu said:

Look, I really have no clue, what your plan was for that massive over bet, but I seriously can not comprehend the reason as to why you would seriously contiplate on shoving this flop? You have'nt hit anything not to mention that massive over bet looks like a person who seriously did'nt want a caller in the first place, also the words out of your mouth was fishy player? So in closing shoving this is like, so mind twisting I can hardly even begin to comprehen this move.

Plz anyone tell me why would we want to shove it again? Also fishy players tend to have such a wide range of hands, that shoving this is almost always asking for a problem, but heck I'm not that good in cash in the first place

Click to expand...

Yes the raise pre was too big, but that wasn't really the point of posting this hand. Shoulda been more in the neighborhood of $5-$6 looking at it later and I can't really tell you what I was thinking... I think what I did was I thought there was more money in the pot than there was when I bet it. I was experimenting with 12 tables again at the time and didn't have much time to decide what to do preflop here. Regardless, that's beside the point here.


Let me ask you a question... How many of the hands that a general unkown will call an UTG raise, then simply flat a 3b, are going to have made a monster hand on this board? Do you expect him to virtually ever have KK or AA here? How about a low pp like 55? Or anything that made 2 pair like J9? Now that you've thought about the type of hands he might have, how many of them will call a shove and how many of them would normally fold to it?

holy shit that's a huge 3-bet lol. If you 3-bet a normal size I think this would be a check-fold. Not really sure here though, you have basically only one pot-sized bet left. Against someone who can fold a jam is pretty obvious, but if this is the type of villain to call off with like 88 here obviously C/F would be better. I guess I'd default to shove and then cry when 88 still calls.

zachvac said:

holy shit that's a huge 3-bet lol. If you 3-bet a normal size I think this would be a check-fold. Not really sure here though, you have basically only one pot-sized bet left. Against someone who can fold a jam is pretty obvious, but if this is the type of villain to call off with like 88 here obviously C/F would be better. I guess I'd default to shove and then cry when 88 still calls.

Click to expand...

Yeah.. this was basically my thinking.

And, like I said I was experimenting with 12 tables again for the first time in awhile and i only had a couple seconds to decide what to raise it to here..that's what i'm gonna blame it on anyway lol.. that's definitely not a normal 3b for me.




Anyways... this guy did turn out to be not just a fish but one of the best type of fish you could ever have at your table.. he just hands his money away. Of course, had I know that this play is the worst possible play ever but didn't know it at the time.

I just wanted to double check my shove was fine vs at the time an unknown.. was pretty sure that it was.


Results were very LOL worthy... (not that they really matter for the decision here..) he called the shove. Turn was a 3 and river was an A. Don't remember suits, flush didn't come in.

He flipped over 33.

I followed this guy around for the next couple of hours and got my money back plus another 2.5 buy ins or so from him before he finally logged out. He would pay off anything with any pair, he was awesome.

zachvac said:

holy shit that's a huge 3-bet lol. If you 3-bet a normal size I think this would be a check-fold. Not really sure here though, you have basically only one pot-sized bet left. Against someone who can fold a jam is pretty obvious, but if this is the type of villain to call off with like 88 here obviously C/F would be better. I guess I'd default to shove and then cry when 88 still calls.

Click to expand...

This pretty much. Default play should be shoving, imo. Ch/fold is pretty weak without a specific read since most people are shoving basically any pair, any ace, any draw, and sometimes worse, like KQ or something, if we check here. Also, I don't hate the massive 3-bet (It's something I employ vs. bad regs who don't fold to 3-bets), but you should have payed a little more attention to stack sizes here and had a plan for the flop beforehand.

dsvw56 said:

This pretty much. Default play should be shoving, imo. Ch/fold is pretty weak without a specific read since most people are shoving basically any pair, any ace, any draw, and sometimes worse, like KQ or something, if we check here. Also, I don't hate the massive 3-bet (It's something I employ vs. bad regs who don't fold to 3-bets), but you should have payed a little more attention to stack sizes here and had a plan for the flop beforehand.

Click to expand...

^ not saying you are wrong (you aren't)... but, my plan basically was to shove on this particular caller...flop stacks sort of dictate it as you said c/f is way too weak. Against the other two villains who were deeper stacked, there are more options. Ideally, everyone just folds to the squeeze of course.

I generally formulate my plan based first on the original raiser who this villain was not. Didn't really expect him to call after UTG folds (most won't) and if he did, well this was my plan basically...

Do you have a better suggestion? That was one reason I posted it to see if anything else made sense.

this is an obvious check after the flop....if u didnt have a read on the players and u push post flop then u r just throwing ur money out there for them to take if they have top pair or will make a call with 2nd pair. preflop i make it 6.5 in that position because i know if i miss i am exposed and i also know that if i get reraised that gives me a better chance to isolate or fold