$50 NLHE Full Ring: 50NL Live Home Game 8 Handed: Was my move on the flop correct?

john003

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$50 NLHE Full Ring: 50NL Live Home Game 8 Handed: Was my move on the flop correct?

Hello!

After a long hiatus, I am back at poker. This time around, I'm exclusively live play due to the state of online poker with the US. Currently at $400ish of my goal of $1000 to take to the track (woohoo!).

I'm currently trying to build a roll for the dog track, so I'm padding it out via home games. I attend a 50NL home game on Tuesday nights and organized a 50NL home game at my friends house for Friday nights, so I'm "partial host" (my chips and table).

Halfway through the night, most of the table is loose passive. I would never call with this hand preflop in this position with so many to act behind, but the table has been passive and I knew I wouldn't get a raise and get to see a cheap multiway flop. Stacks are approximations due to live play. Also, a min raise at this game has been established as a "fun way to juice up the pot" and people are enjoying seeing a flop for $1.


50NL Home Game - 8 Hand

Hero: $165 is dealt :ks4::7s4:

UTG $80: Raises 50c to $1
UTG+1 $120: Calls $1
MP1 Hero $165: Calls $1
MP2: Folds
MP3 $90: Calls $1
BTN $80: Calls $1
SB $120: Calls 75c
BB $60: Calls 50c

Pot: $7

Flop: :7h4::7c4::8h4:

SB: Bets $5
BB: Folds
UTG: Folds
UTG+1: Raises $5 to $10
Hero: ???

So, forget preflop. I already explained the how and why we got here; passive home game.
The SB is a friend of mine whom I've played extensively with. He is that guy constantly betting/poking/bluffing at pots because that's the "thrill" of poker for him. I know his $5 bet likely means nothing. UTG+1 is an acquaintance of mine. Very new to poker and this is my first time playing with him. Before this, his only poker experience is playing at his friends change home game.

At this point, I raised it $15 to $25 total. In my mind, I needed to figure out where I stood in the hand. I personally think calling here is a weak play, but playing K7s we made our trips so obviously we have some type of vested interest in this hand. I also want to chase out/charge anyone chasing a straight or flush should I have the best hand.

The rest of the action goes as follows:
Hero: Raises $15 to $25
MP3: Raises $25 to $50
BTN: Folds
SB: Folds
BB: Folds
UTG+1: Calls $40
Hero: ???

MP3 is another friend of mine that is experienced in tournament play but not a student of the game by any means. For some reason, due to him paying me off 3 weeks prior holding top pair, good kicker to my middle set, he's determined to win a hand against me. His raise I'm not overly concerned about because I've noticed he's developed a habit of betting any nut draw on the flop.

UTG+1 just smooth calling is exactly why I put in the raise I did. I would've happily reraised MP3 all in but UTG+1 smooth calling $40 more after all this action is ringing alarm bells in my head. I fold my trips.

Pot: $137

Turn: :ac4:

UTG+1: Checks
MP3: Checks

River: :6s4:

Final board: :7h4::7c4::8h4::ac4::6s4:

UTG+1: Bets $40, putting MP3 all in.
MP3: Snap calls all in.

UTG+1 shows :8d4::7d4: for a full house.

MP3 shows :ah4::6h4: for two pair.

UTG+1 wins pot of $217.

At this point I'm really patting myself on the back and recognize I got out of the hand pretty cheaply all things considered. Years ago, I'd have jammed it all in on the flop and been called by a better hand and hoping for a 3 outer. A different player/friend at the table after the game said he would've just called but if I'd have just called, I still don't quite know where I am in the hand and could've been facing more bets on the turn and river.

Was my raise on the flop the right move?
 
Dejange

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Very nice and thorough representing the hand in question :top:

If I place myself in your position, I would say - damn good I acted like that after flop showing, otherwise I would remain flop committed to the end :p

You red the signs correctly, what I think would be harder if you just flat called that raise ...
 
john003

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You red the signs correctly, what I think would be harder if you just flat called that raise ...

I agree, I think calling here is the absolute worst play to make because I'm still just left "wondering" and likely would've paid more than my $25 bet to attempt to get to a showdown.

For so long I was so used to online play and having forum communities to talk strategy and review hand history with. I'm so grateful I chose to log back in to CC and other online poker venues to talk theory and strategy. Some people looked at me like I was crazy when I flipped over my mucked cards at the end to show the trips, realizing I raised and then folded.

Always good to be reassured you made the right move!
 
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I honestly think my alarm bells are going off when UTG+1 raises the flop. I assume he has been passive too? I am thinking 88,87, or A7. Passive players don't tend to raise here with much less. I am calling to draw to my K instead of raising there. When the A turns, I feel like I am probably beat and trying to check down, calling smaller bets and folding to big ones.

The whole home game thing with UTG+1 being relatively new to poker changes the dynamics a lot here. He could have an over pair too, so I definitely understand your line. Great fold in the end!
 
john003

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I honestly think my alarm bells are going off when UTG+1 raises the flop. I assume he has been passive too? I am thinking 88,87, or A7. Passive players don't tend to raise here with much less. I am calling to draw to my K instead of raising there. When the A turns, I feel like I am probably beat and trying to check down, calling smaller bets and folding to big ones.

The whole home game thing with UTG+1 being relatively new to poker changes the dynamics a lot here. He could have an over pair too, so I definitely understand your line. Great fold in the end!

You're right it really should have, I just personally hate flatting here. I don't know, I thought maybe it was 8x or 99/TT. Stupid assumption on my part. Live and learn. Thanks for the response!
 
duggs

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jam flop and get it in, this is a really really bad fold imo
 
duggs

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In this spot against these opponents? Elaborate?


He is a newb minraising flop and cold calling on a 778 board, he reasonably holds any 7x combo here, all bar 8 of which we crush. We are waaay ahead of both opponents ranges and dont need to win that often to break even here.
 
john003

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He is a newb minraising flop and cold calling on a 778 board, he reasonably holds any 7x combo here, all bar 8 of which we crush. We are waaay ahead of both opponents ranges and dont need to win that often to break even here.

I certainly see the logic behind that, and while the player is a newb, he at least knows enough to know when he has a boat. The only time I'd seen him do any kind of reraising so far was when he had a made hand. He'd bet at a pot on a bluff (he was called down holding pocket 5s) but the only time he reraised that night was when he turned a straight.

I thought the same thing and wondered how I'd do it in the future. I completely get the in the long run mentality, but I went with my gut/read and it was a good fold this time.

Thanks for the response, I certainly appreciate all constructive criticism!
 
duggs

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I certainly see the logic behind that, and while the player is a newb, he at least knows enough to know when he has a boat. The only time I'd seen him do any kind of reraising so far was when he had a made hand. He'd bet at a pot on a bluff (he was called down holding pocket 5s) but the only time he reraised that night was when he turned a straight.

I thought the same thing and wondered how I'd do it in the future. I completely get the in the long run mentality, but I went with my gut/read and it was a good fold this time.

Thanks for the response, I certainly appreciate all constructive criticism!


Thats not how this works, regardless of the outcome its still a bad fold.

If a guy bluffs 30% of the time and we call a potsized bet and he has a bluff its still a bad call. Likewise here we beat around 90%of his range and made a very very incorrect fold. I dunno why you think he will only minraise boats and not trips here.
 
madjek

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Thinking the hand thru like you did is something I often fail at until it's too late. So often I shove my chips in then suddenly realize what point the game is at and how hand played out looks suspicious and that I may be in trouble lol and guy turns over nuts and I'm out. I think you looked at it right and played it right imo. I have been working on trying to slow down and think things out a little. Of course when you fold a hand like that and 2 pairs wins the hand to a flush draw for huge pot it drives you crazy lol. But when you have it right like thus handhand go ahead and pat yourself on back :)
 
john003

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Thats not how this works, regardless of the outcome its still a bad fold.

If a guy bluffs 30% of the time and we call a potsized bet and he has a bluff its still a bad call. Likewise here we beat around 90%of his range and made a very very incorrect fold. I dunno why you think he will only minraise boats and not trips here.

Oh, I get what you're saying. Being results oriented vs GTO (I think it's called), a new concept to me the last few weeks since my return to the game. I don't know. Under normal circumstances, I generally jam it right here for there are only 2 specific hands that are crushing us (88, 87). Just knew I was beat and my trips were no good.
 
duggs

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Oh, I get what you're saying. Being results oriented vs GTO (I think it's called), a new concept to me the last few weeks since my return to the game. I don't know. Under normal circumstances, I generally jam it right here for there are only 2 specific hands that are crushing us (88, 87). Just knew I was beat and my trips were no good.
3 hands, 10 combos total, 88x3 87x3 A7x4. as opposed to Q7-75 which is 24 combos. thats ignoring the times they have 9T 99 56 A8. and we needa laughably small amount of equity to make this better than folding.

and the phrase you are looking for is EV (expected value). You didnt really know you were beat tho, you know afterwards that he had a relatively unlikely holding. you wouldnt be so sure had he flipped one of the 40ish combos that we crush, which happens about 4/5ths of the time
 
john003

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3 hands, 10 combos total, 88x3 87x3 A7x4. as opposed to Q7-75 which is 24 combos. thats ignoring the times they have 9T 99 56 A8. and we needa laughably small amount of equity to make this better than folding.

and the phrase you are looking for is EV (expected value). You didnt really know you were beat tho, you know afterwards that he had a relatively unlikely holding. you wouldnt be so sure had he flipped one of the 40ish combos that we crush, which happens about 4/5ths of the time

Because I just make it a habit of folding trips?

k
 
duggs

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Because I just make it a habit of folding trips?

k


Oh ok then whats the point of posting this in the strategy section? go post this in the brags section, he flips 97 and you never post this hand.
 
Figaroo2

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I suggest you get hold of a copy of the excellent poker book "The course" by Ed Miller.
He actually quotes on page 43 ..."dont ever limp K7s trying to hit a flop..."


The hand isnt anywhere near as relevant as your overall thinking.


Your limp and reasoning for playing the hand is flawed don't try to justify it.
you don't make money in poker from trying to hit flops and you make even less when you do hit the flop hard and fold.


You beat your game by raising the crap out their dead money limps with good hands and if they do decide to play you have a raised pot with usually a decent equity advantage.


Listen to Duggs and read that book.
 
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