€50 NLHE 6-max: Turned 2 pair in 4 bet pot, have to shove right?

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 400.68 BB (VPIP: 20.28, PFR: 13.03, 3Bet Preflop: 5.67, hands: 1,687)
UTG: 104.26 BB (VPIP: 43.52, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 109)
MP: 100 BB (VPIP: 28.83, PFR: 20.72, 3Bet Preflop: 5.97, Hands: 227)
CO: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 22.31, 3Bet Preflop: 6.72, Hands: 370)
Hero (BTN): 137.5 BB
SB: 109.5 BB (VPIP: 21.20, PFR: 19.28, 3Bet Preflop: 9.89, Hands: 260)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:spade: Q:heart:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, BB raises to 9 BB, Hero raises to 23 BB, BB calls 14 BB

Flop: (46.5 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond: 5:diamond: J:diamond:
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (46.5 BB, 2 players) Q:spade:
BB bets 32.54 BB, Hero ?

I was extremely skeptical of the whole situation after he flats a 4 bet OOP and I really didn't like the flop much. Now if he miraculously happens to have a flush then nothing we can do right?

I think it's a shove. The villain have a lot of hands on his range that you're beating, like KQ, AQ, AJdx, AKdx, ATdx, and he could slow AA or KK.

Why are we 4-bet bluffing here? Am I missing something?

c9h13no3 said:

Why are we 4-bet bluffing here? Am I missing something?

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Because this guy has been incessantly 3 betting my button steals.

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yes..shove

You should shove but does that really draw a confidece latter on within the match

you shove just out of pure speculation and logic. the betting pattern proves demand for such..unless u got a feel for it otherwise

got to put your foot down and let him know you will stand your ground to a certain extent llol

I agree with C9 this isn't the right hand for 4 bet bluffing, even if he's 3betting you 15% from the BB you are still well behind.
To 4 bet bluff you really want an A or K blocker which helps you outflop JJ QQ TT if he flats your 4 bet.
As to how its played he's never putting you on QJ here so shove and hope no diamond comes and the board doesn't pair. My equity calc shows you 60-65% against a suitable range of hands.
"Because this guy has been incessantly 3 betting my button steals"........Sounds like he recognises what you are doing....Then you re-adjust and steal less or just move tables to a better spot.

Thinker_145 said:

Because this guy has been incessantly 3 betting my button steals.

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Then include his "3-bet vs. steal" stat in the thread?

When you're involved in BTN vs. Blind shenanigans on a regular basis with a player, you should include the recent hand history from the session. A sentence like "I've been 3-bet on 3 of my last 5 steal attempts, but I haven't 4-bet any of them yet" goes a long way to telling us how things are playing out.

If he's been abusing you a lot recently, he'll expect you to play back. If it's just a habit you know he has over the last 200-300 hands, then you can probably 4-bet bluff easier.

Oh, and there are many adjustments you can make to having a guy fight back against your steals...

- 4-bet wider for value
- Never 4-bet, call pre to trap with all of your big hands
- Steal less.
- 4-bet bluff
- Call 3-bets wider and bluff more postflop

I prefer them somewhat in that order. Blind vs. blind gets players into this macho "**** you I'm not folding" mindset. So rebluffing them usually isn't as effective as just getting them to blow off their stack to you when you have a hand.

So why would he be 3 betting you more? Your folding to his 3bet more than 60% ??? Perhaps your considered weak tight.

Remember over adjusting is very common among bad players and that is why we can start 3betting wider and 4betting wider because people tend to adjust poorly which you fell in his trap.

Remember we have position in the hand so no need to 4bet bluff like this. Id be happier with KQ type hands and like c9 said Ax type probably suited variety I like.

And QJ is not too bad flatting especially if he's willing to 3bet you wide with any pocket pair and a whole lot of speculative hands. When we 4bet we perhaps are letting him play perfect poker? So just flat but slightly widen your 3bet calling range.

Thinker_145 said:

Because this guy has been incessantly 3 betting my button steals.

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If you got a good read on the villain,you should shove imo.

First i dont 4bet in pre-flop but in this situation call is good

c9h13no3 said:

Then include his "3-bet vs. steal" stat in the thread?

When you're involved in BTN vs. Blind shenanigans on a regular basis with a player, you should include the recent hand history from the session. A sentence like "I've been 3-bet on 3 of my last 5 steal attempts, but I haven't 4-bet any of them yet" goes a long way to telling us how things are playing out.

If he's been abusing you a lot recently, he'll expect you to play back. If it's just a habit you know he has over the last 200-300 hands, then you can probably 4-bet bluff easier.

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Ya sorry I really should have given more info. His 3 bet to BTN open was 12%, however more importantly he had done it to me the last few rounds. I don't remember for sure but I think this was the first time I 4 bet him in the session.

I even start stealing less against such players but when I do I have to stand my ground. If I had gotten 5 bet here obviously I'll fold but I would make a note about it and proceed in the future accordingly.

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Thinker_145 said:

I have to stand my ground.

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This type of thinking is what gets you in trouble. For his 3-bet to turn an immediate profit, he needs you to fold more than ~65% of the time. So just make sure you're not over-adjusting, and "standing your ground" more than you need to. You're trying to have an optimal range, you're not defending the turf you pissed on.

BTW just to update I did shove and got called by 95s. Goes to show how nuts people can get in BvB situations. He flat called my 4 bet OOP with 95s maybe planning to bluff me later? That's just super lol.

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lol perhaps our villain has a leak when he gets deepstacked? hope you noted all this down.

Perhaps not bluffing but thought he was just good, hoping a diamond wouldn't hit.

My input.

Depending on your point where the dealer button wins is at. You should win 75 percent of time. He prolly has one diamond. If he is at two thirds missing the flush with four cards after flop. The 75 percent is coming to to 60 percent. If he is at his point where he normally hits a hand when the dealer button is in same position. He is prolly at his 25 percent winning. All the forces adding up.

Aces2w1n said:

lol perhaps our villain has a leak when he gets deepstacked? hope you noted all this down.

Perhaps not bluffing but thought he was just good, hoping a diamond wouldn't hit.

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Of course he isn't bluffing post flop just that the call pre is just lol.

While we are at it I have done my own share of bizarre things in BvB situations so I prolly shouldn't be laughing at this lol.

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Thinker_145 said:

Of course he isn't bluffing post flop just that the call pre is just lol.

While we are at it I have done my own share of bizarre things in BvB situations so I prolly shouldn't be laughing at this lol.

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hehe we all have and most likely do it again, but hopefully its like a luna eclipse or like haleys comet.

i guess that's the fun thing about poker.