$50 NLHE 6-max: TT BTN, hit set on flop, extracting money from tight player

T

Tsyphon

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$50 NLHE 6-max: TT BTN, hit set on flop, extracting money from tight player

*The title is wrong, this is a local cash friendly cash game, blinds 0.25/0.50 with set buyin at $20. Halfway through the night they will let people buy in for $40.

This is late into the night a few hands before everyone wants to quit.

5 handed at this point, I'm on the button and just recently shoved pocket 9 with no call and pocket 4 with a call bringing me up to 40bb (normal buy in).

It folds to me, I get TT on the button, raise to 4xBB ($2) on a table where standard is $1.50-2.50.

SB folds, BB who is a very tight player calls. He raises small feeler bets even with TP good kicker unless he has the nuts, in which case he will almost always do 2/3 pot type bets.
- Pot is now $4.25

Flop is T23r, not at all likely to hit his range. He checks, I decide to check since he would likely shutdown to a Cbet.
- Pot still $4.25

Turn is a K, with now no matching suits on the board. He bets $1.50 which is his typical feeler / made but not strong made hand bet. I decide to call feeling that I can get value on the river, and with such a small bet size he would shut down if I raise him.
- Pot is now $7.25

River is an 8 or some other kind of blank. He checks, so I bet $5 hoping the K hit him. He thinks for a bit then folds KQo.

Is my thinking right here? I had a set on the flop, but it was such a dry flop and he is such a tight player I can't see any other actions producing more gain, other than perhaps a 3BB Cbet on the flop which he might not believe with overcards.

I understand that against some players getting money can be hard, and that him folding a pair of kings with a decent kicker makes him quite exploitable, just wanting to see if the line was right. Against any other player on the table I would have been much much more aggressive, such as a 2/3 pot Cbet on the flop, min reraise on the turn, and a 1/2 pot value bet on the river if it was checked to me.
 
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Aces2w1n

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If he had AK he wouldve raised pre... if u know he makes nit folds. Probably shouldve bet half pot maximum
 
T

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I agree, didn't think AK was ever a possibility. I could rule out a T, but perhaps a 2 or a 3 with an A was in the cards. But he pretty much had the hand that I expected him to.

Are you suggesting half pot on the flop?
 
EvertonGirl

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With being last to act I just like to cbet here, like half the pot something like that.

It does depend how often you have been seen cbetting, he may call if you have often been cbetting IP.

I think aces is talking about your river bet should of been smaller, if you want him to call.
 
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RakeMyLife

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He is not a tight player, he is a nit.

Against nits, DO NOT become overly passive yourself (like when u flat called the turn) just to squeeze out every dime...this plays directly into their game. Instead, u will win money from nits in the long run by winning hands u shouldn't have won (i.e. when u get them to fold better hands). So in this hand and against this player, u lead out or min raise at the very least.

Note: checking the flop (only) on this board is probably best against most players.
 
Shumkoolie

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He is not a tight player, he is a nit.

Against nits, DO NOT become overly passive yourself (like when u flat called the turn) just to squeeze out every dime...this plays directly into their game. Instead, u will win money from nits in the long run by winning hands u shouldn't have won (i.e. when u get them to fold better hands). So in this hand and against this player, u lead out or min raise at the very least.

Note: checking the flop (only) on this board is probably best against most players.

I like Rake's thinking here. Your checking back on the flop was fine because you want to give them a chance to catch up so you can extract value. I would have probably raised here on the turn to try and get more money out in the long run. If they call your raise on the turn, they're more likely to call a river bet, and sizing wise, 40-60% pot is probably a good range to get paid off.

It's easy knowing they had KQ here to say all that, but you did extract decent value.....Maybe not full value but again, if they're making those types of folds, you want to strike where they're speculating. If you raise, they may start to think you have a hand like AT, thus giving them the thought that they're now in the catbird seat and just sucked out on you.

Very possible but if this player isn't one to take that kind of line then you're probably not getting much more no matter what you did.

But the key was the check on the flop which got you value, so overall, the play was fine.
 
Figaroo2

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I cbet here for value 100% of the time, you have a big hand and you want to start building the pot. Very few players fold on a T high flop, they either have 2 overcards, a medium pair that wants to see more evidence that its beaten before folding or has caught some part of of the low board and all these hands will usually call at least once.
You want to see those aces and kings on the turn. If he hits his king on the turn he's likely calling at least one more bet. If he called the flop with two overcards and caught one he ain't folding it quickly.
I'd double barrel the turn about 40-50% pot partly to balance the time I'm barrelling with air. If he calls the turn and it obviously bricks then bet small on the river 30% pot which makes it easier for him to call and gives him room to spazz if he's so inclined. That was a pretty nitty fold by him on a very ragged board.
 
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I cbet here for value 100% of the time, you have a big hand and you want to start building the pot. Very few players fold on a T high flop, they either have 2 overcards, a medium pair that wants to see more evidence that its beaten before folding or has caught some part of of the low board and all these hands will usually call at least once.
You want to see those aces and kings on the turn. If he hits his king on the turn he's likely calling at least one more bet. If he called the flop with two overcards and caught one he ain't folding it quickly.
I'd double barrel the turn about 40-50% pot partly to balance the time I'm barrelling with air. If he calls the turn and it obviously bricks then bet small on the river 30% pot which makes it easier for him to call and gives him room to spazz if he's so inclined. That was a pretty nitty fold by him on a very ragged board.

A cbet here is a bad play bc of villain's style. Hero knows he is a nit, and will ONLY call if he hit the flop (and the chances of him hitting that flop are slim). Imo u really have to take ur opponents image into account (and not just ur cards) when deciding to bet.
 
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I would have raised more pre, taken the pot and be happy. (small buy ins, its always useful with this aggressive play in future)

Again, I don't understand why you check the flop. I would raised and scooped it already. A4, A5 and 56s or 45s are likely.

After you called the turn, he put you on AK since he though you were a NIT. That's why he checked/folded the river feeling something is amiss with this sudden raise on river - either AK or atleast a 2 pair like K8.

Raise, scoop and be happy (they still have no idea about your hand).
Slow play and win a smaller pot (now know your hands) leading to bad beat when you lose more.
 
Figaroo2

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A cbet here is a bad play bc of villain's style. Hero knows he is a nit, and will ONLY call if he hit the flop (and the chances of him hitting that flop are slim). Imo u really have to take ur opponents image into account (and not just ur cards) when deciding to bet.
It's bad form to do this. Just give your own advice and let the original poster make his own decisions as to the advice he chooses to follow.
It is actually statistically proven that a ten high flop gets the most calls on cbets. If he's tight he's going to have lots of pairs that will call on this flop. Don't let the fact you know his cards skew the ranges.
I remember now why I stopped posting in this forum....
 
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RakeMyLife

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It's bad form to do this. Just give your own advice and let the original poster make his own decisions as to the advice he chooses to follow.
It is actually statistically proven that a ten high flop gets the most calls on cbets. If he's tight he's going to have lots of pairs that will call on this flop. Don't let the fact you know his cards skew the ranges.
I remember now why I stopped posting in this forum....

My advice was that checking the flop here was a good idea. And I gave the logic behind such a play. I think we can all agree that certain lines are more profitable (I.e. better) than others, no hard feelings.

Villains range is based on the original poster's insights. Just bc most of the time ppl hit a 10 high flop doesn't mean this villain did. In fact, based on what we know about villain, he didn't.
 
Aces2w1n

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My advice was that checking the flop here was a good idea. And I gave the logic behind such a play. I think we can all agree that certain lines are more profitable (I.e. better) than others, no hard feelings.

Villains range is based on the original poster's insights. Just bc most of the time ppl hit a 10 high flop doesn't mean this villain did. In fact, based on what we know about villain, he didn't.



I agree with cbets. There is so many reasons to do this.

1. We need our bluffs to work, so betting top end is great way to mix it in.
2. We won't get full value... So much harder to get stacks in by river. Nit or not if has top end of his range we can get stacks or at least have a go :)
3. Nits will tend to have PP mainly in this spot so any overpair we will at least get 1 call especially when we bet our entire range here.


So yeah to summarize a nit should have JJ+ PP mainly here and not many AK in his range since he will most likely fold or re-raise. Even mid range PP 77-99 will call here as well since we will have a lot of air.

And we need to bet on flop to keep the window open for stacks especially if villain thinks he's good with overpairs. Even nits make mistakes and get impatient.


Last advice as well is remember the better players we aim to get more money on earlier streets... The fishies we make money from later streets.
So the advice by not cbetting is pretty horrific tbh... sorry to say.
 
Omahahahaha

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So the best strategy when it is folded to you on the button is for you to raise at least 50% of hands. So because of this you want to be opening much smaller on the button. $1.25 is a good number. Of course with your exact hand we don't mind making it $2 but you have to think in terms of your general over all strategy and of course if you are raising more with stronger hands this is pretty exploitable.

Checking the flop is a pretty big mistake. You should bet. The last thing you want to do is give free cards for your opponent to beat you. Because you will be c-betting this board virtually always there is a decent chance you get called by some hands that are drawing virtually dead against you like 66. A4 or even two overs might peel.

Turn slowplay is more reasonable but raising is still better. You have a massive hand and want to get money into the pot. Villain also made a pretty small bet.
 
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My advice was that checking the flop here was a good idea.
+1
I don’t have experience of these games, but checking sounds very reasonable line given the opponent, obviously CB is never wrong per se. The key, imo, is to think how many streets we want value, against this opponent given board one (or sometimes two) is good. Even for tight player is mostly unheard they fold river after no CB with this hand.

Given this is local friendly game and he is nit the only goal should be exploitable play, he is nit by heart, and we need to be totally crazy to get him to change his ways. Cheap river showdown bad bluffs or 3betting crazy should be better way to build the image against him, but then again I bet the table in general is loose enough without such extremes.
 
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