$50 NLHE 6-max: TPTK against lagtard

slycbnew

slycbnew

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$50 NL HE 6-max: TPTK against lagtard

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 40/27/1.9

Only 80 hands on Villain at this point. Villain's AF is not skyhigh, and this is the only ch/r I've seen from him.

With the flop ch/r, I was planning on trying to call down cheaply, which is kinda dumb since the pot's so big after I call - is the call reasonable, or is this a choice between shoving and folding? If those are the choices, which way do we go?

As played, Villain shoves turn - response?

poker stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: $107.50 (215 bb)
SB: $49.50 (99 bb)
BB: $53.55 (107.1 bb)
UTG: $45.70 (91.4 bb)
MP: $61.75 (123.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $51.55 (103.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with Qd Ah
UTG folds, MP raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.75, 3 folds, MP calls $3.25

Flop: ($10.25) Qs 5h 4h (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $6.50, MP raises to $18, Hero calls $11.50

Turn: ($46.25) 5s (2 players)
MP bets $39 and is all-in, Hero ???
 
G

Graeme

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I'm not sure what the standard raise is on Poker Stars, but I struggle to put the villian on KK -> JJ as a 3xBB raise, sometimes isn't enough to get donks out with an A, rag - depending on how he has played in the past 80 hands he could be sat there with A, rag suited, so could quite easily be 3oak by the turn.

If I was in his position, I'd put you on A,x and then I'd have to weigh up the odds of it being A,Q. What would his read be on you? I'd be inclined to think, as you have position, you were just trying to buy a free card on the turn and were drawing to something (possibly the flush or over pair) so he has tried to catch you out. One thing I do know is that he doesn't want you to see the last card, which would indicate his hand is completely ruined by a flush, so we can rule out him having 4oak, FH or anywhere near the nut flush. If he had a 5, he would not re-raise on the flop, so we can confidently rule out 3oak, so I'd put him on a mid range PP (10->6) or a weak draw. Depending on what my roll was like, I'd call as I'm 80% sure he needs to catch on the river to win. The 20% doubt is that he's got A,A and played it cleverly by not re-reraising preflop.

Edit: Sorry, just seen your villian stats at the top and that you had the Ah!
 
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bw07507

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Against this villain I play it the same way and snapcall this turn. He has tons of weaker Queens, flush draws, and other random crap in his range.
 
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Skidmark

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preflop instead of 3betting i would just call as there are many aces and queens u dominate in his range IF u think button, sb and bb wouldnt squeeze.
and i think his range on the turn is queens with flush draw or combo draws 6h7h or 3h2h(not likely) so its a call imo.
 
sky4ever

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The 40/27 stats tell his pf range is pretty wide. I think you`re ahead and you should call, besides that you`re getting the right odds since his shove on the turn is about the size of the pot .
 
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bw07507

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wow i didnt realize this was a 3bet pot. Never, ever, ever fold here, vs any villain. You played the hand perfectly if u called turn.
 
slycbnew

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preflop instead of 3betting i would just call as there are many aces and queens u dominate in his range IF u think button, sb and bb wouldnt squeeze.

I get where you're coming from, but I also want to isolate. I've got Villain's range dominated, but I'm not excited about playing the hand multiway if BTN/blinds call.
 
Four Dogs

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Boy that bet stinks to high hell. It's probably the fact that he didn't 4 bet pf which if he's a true laggy means he doesn't have a high pair or AK. AQ is unlikely too. It's a set or a Semi bluff, most likely the later. Generally when a laggy shows strength pf they are very reluctant to give up post flop so his aggression isn't very telling. The good news is that your losses are limited. I don't think you can even cover the last bet. I happily call here.

Oh BTW, if your considering calling here why didn't you put him in on the flop?
 
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slycbnew

slycbnew

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wow i didnt realize this was a 3bet pot. Never, ever, ever fold here, vs any villain. You played the hand perfectly if u called turn.

Cool, I did call the turn, and won the hand - your range is spot on as always (QhTh).

Calling flop ch/r is better than shoving? Is that because he'll be more likely to get his money in the middle on the turn if I call rather than shove?
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Oh BTW, if your considering calling here why didn't you put him in on the flop?

That's actually what prompted this post - :D - couldn't decide if I was dense there or not in calling rather than shoving the ch/r...

The turn call question was more to get a feel for what people saw as his range, the flop ch/r did confuse me, was a little worried about a set or idiotic 54...
 
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Skidmark

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Boy that bet stinks to high hell. It's probably the fact that he didn't 4 bet pf which if he's a true laggy means he doesn't have a high pair or AK. AQ is unlikely too. It's a set or a Semi bluff, most likely the later. Generally when a laggy shows strength pf they are very reluctant to give up post flop so his aggression isn't very telling. The good news is that your losses are limited. I don't think you can even cover the last bet. I happily call here.

Oh BTW, if your considering calling here why didn't you put him in on the flop?

because he has less equity on the flop against flush draws which are most likely calling anything on the flop and he can fold to a heart on the turn?

I get where you're coming from, but I also want to isolate. I've got Villain's range dominated, but I'm not excited about playing the hand multiway if BTN/blinds call.

yeah but 3bet calling range on the button/blinds would be pocket 10s+ here and thats ahead of you and call anyway or 4bet.
btw actually my range is spot on. i got closer than him :)
 
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Skidmark

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That's actually what prompted this post - :D - couldn't decide if I was dense there or not in calling rather than shoving the ch/r...

The turn call question was more to get a feel for what people saw as his range, the flop ch/r did confuse me, was a little worried about a set or idiotic 54...

imo you played post flop perfectly nothing to worry about.
and i dont think a set would check raise flop, its so strong.
 
Four Dogs

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because he has less equity on the flop against flush draws which are most likely calling anything on the flop and he can fold to a heart on the turn?
You'd fold to a heart on the turn? No way, you call this bet, you're pot committed. You might as well put him in on the flop. There are plenty of worse hands that will call.
 
Richyl2008

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Calling flop ch/r is better than shoving? Is that because he'll be more likely to get his money in the middle on the turn if I call rather than shove?

Shoving over his flop ch/r may narrow his calling range to the point where he might make a good fold, for instance if he's betting "to see where he's at" and you just call it doesnt tell him much, and he may think he has fold equity on the turn. So you give him a chance to bet his entire range on the turn, and if he doesnt you still have position so you can make sure the money goes in.
 
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I'd put him on flush draw a 5 came on the turn and he tried to scare you off by going all-in but if he had that 5 or anything else that beats you he wouldnt push he would slow play
 
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cothoroughbred

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didnt see he re-raised you on flop...with the flop re-raise i'd put him on a Q or flush draw with him thinking you had AK or something but if he has a Q you out kick him or split if he also has AQ but i most likely think flush draw and I think his push on the turn was to scare you off i think it was coming anyway if board didnt pair or no heart
 
slycbnew

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Shoving over his flop ch/r may narrow his calling range to the point where he might make a good fold, for instance if he's betting "to see where he's at" and you just call it doesnt tell him much, and he may think he has fold equity on the turn. So you give him a chance to bet his entire range on the turn, and if he doesnt you still have position so you can make sure the money goes in.

Thanks, that helped a lot. This logic is something I don't think about enough.
 
Deco

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wow i didnt realize this was a 3bet pot. Never, ever, ever fold here, vs any villain. You played the hand perfectly if u called turn.

Ditto, if we 3bet AQ and hit top pair were getting it in. Its just a matter of how we get it in.

imo you played post flop perfectly nothing to worry about.
and i dont think a set would check raise flop, its so strong.

Preflop was played perfectly as well.
He called with our 3bet with QT!
Building a 3bet pot AQ vs QT is a hugely EV+ scenario!





As for the whole, shall we 3bet the flop or get it on the turn, this is often a rather tricky choice. It mostly depends on how dangerous the board is.
here there's a flush draw coming our way but we have the Ace of hearts so if they have a flush and it does hit we have equity anyway.
So I'd have played it exactly the same as you did here.
 
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bw07507

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As for the whole, shall we 3bet the flop or get it on the turn, this is often a rather tricky choice. It mostly depends on how dangerous the board is.
here there's a flush draw coming our way but we have the Ace of hearts so if they have a flush and it does hit we have equity anyway.
So I'd have played it exactly the same as you did here.

You played it perfectly imo. If you were oop there would be a better case for 3betting flop but villains range here is almost entirely bluffs and other queens, all of which you beat. You don't want to blow villain off bluffs by 3betting flop. You dont ever have to worry about flush draws in 3bet pots either. Its such a small part of villains range that even if u call and the turn comes a heart u should still get it in.
 
Deco

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You dont ever have to worry about flush draws in 3bet pots either.

Never thought of that before.
Makes sense should take alot of fear out of my 3bet pots. I dunno why I've been imagining a range so heavily dependant on pocketpairs could have so many flush draws.:p
 
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