$50 NLHE 6-max: Slowplaying Aces vs Nits

Alucard

Alucard

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SB: 82 BB
BB: 120 BB
UTG: 121 BB
Hero (MP): 379 BB
CO: 92 BB
BTN: 122 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Ac Ad
fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, SB raises to 14.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 11.5 BB, CO calls 11.5 BB

Flop : (44.5 BB, 3 players) 6d 6s Kc
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

Turn : (44.5 BB, 3 players) Kh
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks

River : (44.5 BB, 3 players) 4d
SB bets 29.5 BB, Hero calls 29.5 BB, fold

Both Vs are a bit nitty. SB hasn't sqz'd pre ever & his range is definitely JJ+,AK
I'm trying to trap CO here because he's a bit spewy post flop. I've stacked him once
We could bet both flop & turn but as I said I'm trying to make the CO spew.
Definitely not my standard line but I suppose this is fine?
 
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gustav197poker

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If you put it AK in sb you can try to catch it. Otherwise, you could evaluate an increase in the river. The texture of the board helps you in this case, and on the other hand if you only call, the co has its chance of becoming a bluff. Unfortunately, the position does not favor you, so you should look closely at the range of sb and make a decision. At this time, your hand is too strong to look for bluff unlocks. It is preferable in my opinion, that the lines of the villains become bluff catchers. Your rank is above the pairs that the villains could carry pocket. Only below 2 Kx combos and a 6-6 combo. So, in my opinion, due to your position and the sequence you played, I think that on the river an increase works better, as an alternative of final exploitation. Against 2 probable ranges of high combinations, which have a reduced bluff strength (neutral).
Regars.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Over slow play? Maybe...

Hi there Alucard, nice to see your post here again, how you doing?
First I would like to say that you are a far better player than me. That you have way more experience than myself, so I hope my comments do not offend you, or make you feel bad because we are all here trying to improve our game, our thinking level, our criticism.

Second, I would state about your hand, that you have made too much Slow Play in my humble opinion. Because you decided to call a Squeeze from the SB, with the intention to bring the CO Player to the hand, and I don't believe that overall this could be profitable.
Your line of thought is very clear and fine. The CO player, you said, was a little "spewy" one, so if you decided to 4bet right on the spot, both CO and SB could fold and wouldn't get the maximum value.

However when the SB Squeezes you out of position, SB will have all the KK, QQ, JJ, maybe TT, SB will have AKs, AQs, AJs, maybe ATs and an even bigger maybe A5s-A2s (according to your description SB is a nitty player). PS: We know that is very unlikely that SB could have a lot of combos with Ax, because MP is blocking a fair chunk of them.

What the spewy Player in the CO had called with when Hero MP first Open Raises? And what the Player in the CO could possibly have to call down again a Squeeze MWP?
The CO Player had the advantage of position upon SB and MP, which is not a bad thing.
Being spewy, I assume he could call with a bunch of pocket pairs and suited broadways and strong broadways. For odds? I am not sure if the Player in the CO had the odds. Let me know what do you and the community think about it.

The Preflop might become a Flop issue

Hero MP elects to call a Squeeze coming from the SB to induce a spewy player in the position ahead to call down with his huge nonsense range of hands. Very fine and fair.
The Flop comes 6d 6s Kc rainbow and very dry. In a situation like that, the SB player who made a Preflop Squeeze will never have 66 or 6x in his range. And it is most likely that SB might have some Kx in his range with a strong kicker, mostly AKs, AKo, KQs, KJs, and, being a NIT, I don't believe he would be Squeezing MP with KTs or worse.
However, the Player in the SB also has all the combos of Pocket Kings (KK) in his range and the Hero MP and the caller in the CO have none.
It appears to me that this Flop texture didn't hit too much the CO and the SB's Ranges. Dry as the desert, arid and quite easy to read.
Now again, SB checks out of position (default) and Hero MP checks...So, you slow played Aces Preflop, and now Slow play Aces Postflop, maybe because you were out of position, but I guess you were still trying to catch up some bluffs from the CO player and forgetting a little the SB Squeezor/Aggressor.
I really don't like giving rope to my adversaries to hang me in a poker table. When you Check you are giving a free card to a spewy player (CO) and for a nitty (SB) in the Turn? Why too much kindness?
So, if the turn comes a Jx, a Qx, another Kx are you still comfortable and confident that you have the best hand in this scenario? Or, even worse, nothing too much scary happens in the Turn and one of these players decide to ship in a lot of blinds would you still feel safe calling or Shoving upon them?
Another scenario: comes a brick in the Turn such as 2x, 3x, 7x, 8x 9x and so on, and the Player in the CO, specially, decides to put all the ships in. Are you sure he didn't hit a boat in the Turn and are exactly trying to extract from AK and AA, QQ etc? Sure?
How can you make money if you don't make the pot grow and give excelent odds for your adversaries to complete easily and without any concern their equity turn?
I am not saying that your move is wrong or right. Because I don't believe there is right and wrong in poker. Our actions will rely upon the specific situation we are in.
And, I believe you continued your Slow Play plan against the NIT in the River. Because it comes a brick. When a NIT player out of position bets this small amount in the River, in a very dry river he/she is simply telling you "Oh, love of my life, please, I beg you call this bet because I want and I need to be paid with my boat, please!".
Anyway, I guess you were forced to slow play in the River, and call down the Nitty small bet (most of times not fear, but pure value, because he/she knows that if he blows up the Pot in a very dry board texture, he/she from the SB will have a lot of folds), because the SB NIT will have a lot of Kx in his Range, as long as Hero MP have none (SB NIT will have KQs, KJs, and rarely AKs or AKo because MP is blocking a few combos). I am quite sure this small bet sizing river simply delivered the Villain's SB plan in our hands.
If you Raise in the River, the Nitty will ONLY pay you/Hero with a Kx boat or Shove upon your head. So I believe the call was the correct play in the River, no matter the result, which you kindly, didn't show. Because it really doesn't matter for what we are studying.
Overall your game-plan was good and well played.
Personally, I would not give a free Turn card out of position not even to Jesus Christ is he came down from heaven and decided to play poker. But, I cannot say it was a bad or wrong play, the important thing is that you know why you did it, what was your plan at the moment, the stats of the players in the table, and their respective images in the moment the action happened. Nice saturday!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Alucard

Alucard

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not to be rude guys but long wall of texts are really hard & unattractive to read. I'd prefer if you can keep it short summarizing what's needed :)
Then I can reply the best way I can
 
Aballinamion

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not to be rude guys but long wall of texts are really hard & unattractive to read. I'd prefer if you can keep it short summarizing what's needed :)
Then I can reply the best way I can

Thanks for your candor Alucard! I will try to summarize my ideias in a shorter and better way for comprehension.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
PaxMundi

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Id just go ahead and 4bet since the range of the sb is strong and you might find the co range is strong enough to backraise here vs a 4bet and if not denying the co a better price is ok.
 
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Sidetracked

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I don't really like your play on any street. You said how the SB was nitty and had never squeezed before, so you knew his range was strong. Isn't this exactly why 4 betting would get the best results vs such a strong range? And by flatting and letting the cutoff in relatively cheaply, you now go to a flop 3 way, which isn't the best result for aces.
 
Alucard

Alucard

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I don't really like your play on any street. You said how the SB was nitty and had never squeezed before, so you knew his range was strong. Isn't this exactly why 4 betting would get the best results vs such a strong range? And by flatting and letting the cutoff in relatively cheaply, you now go to a flop 3 way, which isn't the best result for aces.


yeah this is mostly the case.
But at that time in my head SB was folding to a 4b or we just GII post flop if the board is dry. Doesn't matter that much.
I'm trying to make CO spew & win more if possible

SB had Kings for quads & I actually lost less by playing a bit bad.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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yeah this is mostly the case.
But at that time in my head SB was folding to a 4b or we just GII post flop if the board is dry. Doesn't matter that much.
I'm trying to make CO spew & win more if possible

SB had Kings for quads & I actually lost less by playing a bit bad.

Hello there Alucard. You said that you actually lost less by playing a bit bad. Could you explain this for me because I barely understand it. I don't want to make conclusions of my own, but it seems a little bit odd what you just have said.
SB will hit a Set with Pocket Kings 1/8 Flops, where you will not see a King comes to bother. So, you are winning 7 scenarios of KK and most of them will not be scary for KK and you will be paid at least two streets of value with your AA, also not giving odds for the CO player.

PS: As long as the text is becoming bigger, read if you will but I believe the central ideia in up there.

Because the SB is a NIT player I don't really believe he would be folding a 4-bet with KK, so it is automatically profitable your 4bet here. Automatically profibatle in many Flop textures where you can extract a lot of value from KK playing in position, heads-up, without the CO player who already let 3 BB dead left to the Pot.
Do you see the SB folding a KK preflop in the face of a 4bet? And what if you 4bet the SB Squeezor and the CO Spewy decides to call it down for "odds"?
Isn't it a dream for when we are with Pocket Aces, to be in a 4bet pot with 2 other players?
I really don't understand how losing less for playing bad could be a long term profitable play. I'd rather lose more being absolutely certain that I was right (that in the long run, that play is profitable) then lose less, or even win knowing that I play wrong.
Besides if you are certain that the NIT player in the SB could fold a KK Preflop! OMG! You might start having some ideias with players like that and maybe start to 4bet a lot, with all of your Aces specially! A5s-A2s, AJs, AQs, ATs, even A9s, A8s, why not? The guy is capable of folding anything besides AA and AKs, it is automatically profitable to 4bet your range (when you 4bet you have only AA in your range? I guess not.)
When you 4bet in a spot where the CO player had call it down, the NIT will think many times that you are trying to steal the pot, or to get called only from the SB squeezor to play in position, where any ace will scary the hell the SB player! There was already 20 BB dead left in the Pot, and if everybody folds 20 BB is not a small amount of chips, considering we are playing Big Stack Strategy, and if your Stack is usully 100 BB, this pot is excelent to steal with your 4bet Range (AA, AKs, AQs, A5-A2s). 20 BB/100 BB is a huge pot to me to win with a Pocket Pair. (Considering that AA is just acombo, as any other combo of Pocket Pair). I don't know man, let me know what you think, if you had the patient to read this nerd and boring writer and bad%$# as I am.
I am saying this for the sake of science Alucard, and I like to see things from many perspectives.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Alucard

Alucard

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Hello there Alucard. You said that you actually lost less by playing a bit bad. Could you explain this for me because I barely understand it. I don't want to make conclusions of my own, but it seems a little bit odd what you just have said.
SB will hit a Set with Pocket Kings 1/8 Flops, where you will not see a King comes to bother. So, you are winning 7 scenarios of KK and most of them will not be scary for KK and you will be paid at least two streets of value with your AA, also not giving odds for the CO player.


SB hit quads on that board with his KK. The board is K66xKm He had KK,so quads. If we GII pre flop then he would've coolered me for 100BB.
But here I lost less that 100BB because all the money didn't went in
 
mrgupta

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The villain is a nit, this means his 3bet range is very tight. As such, it makes more sense to 4bet preflop and stack off preflop as he isn't folding obviously. If the villain was a crazy spewtard, it's more likely that he would fold to a 4bet, then slowplaying is a better option.

Still there's a third player behind, you don't really want to give him odds to call, you rather play aces headsup in lower SPR situation.
 
mrgupta

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SB hit quads on that board with his KK. The board is K66xKm He had KK,so quads. If we GII pre flop then he would've coolered me for 100BB.
But here I lost less that 100BB because all the money didn't went in
Don't be results-oriented, if you get it in with aces vs kings preflop, you're a 4:1 favourite. That's one of the best situations you can be in, preflop. You have to be honest with yourself and not make justifications for making something else than an optimal play, simply because the result came out different.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop I prefer to 4-bet, but its not a terrible spot to mix in a trap with aces. Postflop I am not a big fan of all this slowplaying. I dont think, we need to bomb it, when the board is this dry and the SPR so small, but why not bet 1/3 or 1/4 pot and get some value from all those second best hands, they can have? Is inducing really more profitable, and could a small bet not also induce a spass raise from CO? You obviously saved some money this time, but I think, you are missing value in the long run.
 
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xrhstos

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Villain is a nit and 3betting from the SB which is a position that players rarely 3bet.
That can mean a very tight range and I believe you should try to get all their money pre instead of trying to trap CO.
As played preflop, postflop you should bet the flop a lot since you can get a lot of value from AK, KQs.
Just because you have history of someone being spewy doesn't mean that they will go out of line every hand, especially multi-way hands.
 
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