$50 NLHE 6-max: really gross 3way TPTK spot

JCgrind

JCgrind

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donkbetter is 30/25 with aggF of 3.0. pfr'er is like 36/20 and nooby. not worried about pfrer, its the guy who donked whos scaring me. what do we think, does he do this with enough draws for me to gii or is it virtually always 2p or a set?


poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1857192
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $55.94
Hero (BTN): $73.90
SB: $103.41
BB: $51.82
UTG: $50.00
MP: $38.45

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with A
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K
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1 fold, MP raises to $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $2, SB calls $1.75, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($8.00) 6
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5
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K
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(4 players)
SB bets $4, BB folds, MP raises to $36.45 all in, Hero folds, SB calls $32.45

Turn: ($80.90) 8
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(2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($80.90) 7
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(2 players - 1 is all in)
 
B

baudib1

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3-bet pre.

As played, flop is probably a fold. MP is a tard and it's unfortunate SB gets to stack him.

This spot becomes slightly interesting if you don't have the Ah but probably still a fold.

Also 3-bet pre! I mean, come on. Are you really afraid to play a huge pot with AK in position vs. a nooby?
 
Cafeman

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I would have 3bet pre. On the flop I think it's a fold too.
 
D

DanziM

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3 betting pre is really going to give you some information in their range. They they shove then maybe you'd be at the stage of recalculating, a flat call by them leaves you in pos and in the driving seat.
 
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RamdeeBen

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As played, I'd fold, 4way TPTK to a lead then re-jammer is rarely good I mean, cos we still have to think of what SB is going to do and what your plan is. You just know you're behind like close to 100% of the time in these spots.

How come you don't 3bet on the BTN btw? I guess it's cool if you know the blinds are tight and fold a ton to play A,K in position but if we have two loose blinds then A,K is just never gonna be good in a 4way pot the vast majority of time + it's so nice to get MP nooby to jam his 60blind stack on us pre.
 
JCgrind

JCgrind

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i knew i was gunna get slammed for not 3bing this pre.... imo flatting is best and heres why

hes a noob who cant fold TP, by 3bing pre i make him fold lots (his f3b was ~50%) so i want to play as many pots with him as possible and 3bing doesnt let this happen. lets pretend that i didnt 3b pre and the pot was just me and him HU, i can still very easily get his ~$30 stack in w/o a flop 3b.
also, both blinds were loose, but their blind play was ultra tight (both had never 3b pre and were folding 100% over 50 hands from any open other than BvB, INCLUDING BTN opens [lolol])


also, even having the results hidden, i think its pretty obvious that SB isnt drawing when he snaps the AI w/ shit odds.
 
JCgrind

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As played, I'd fold, 4way (3way) TPTK to a lead then re-jammer is rarely good I mean, cos we still have to think of what SB is going to do and what your plan is. You just know you're behind like close to 100% of the time in these spots.

How come you don't 3bet on the BTN btw? I guess it's cool if you know the blinds are tight and fold a ton to play A,K in position but if we have two loose blinds then A,K is just never gonna be good in a 4way pot the vast majority of time + it's so nice to get MP nooby to jam his 60blind stack on us pre.

lol made my last post before i saw this, that says why i played as i did. feel free to criticize after reading it if you can still tell me why i shouldve 3b
 
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RamdeeBen

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It's ofc a snap call when he jams and it's hu it's just the SB thats the problem, if they are tight on the blinds like you say, then it's likely they are calling with middle pocket pairs looking for set value. The problem now is, when he jams, what do we do about the SB. Do. If we call and get rejammed by the SB, we just know we're screwed (unless he's not that tight in the blinds and calls Kx hands) and have to call and find ourselves behind to a set most times or do we just ISO jam but then know we're only getting looked up by what beats us
 
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RamdeeBen

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lol made my last post before i saw this, that says why i played as i did. feel free to criticize after reading it if you can still tell me why i shouldve 3b

Based on those stats its fine to play in position imo vs the fish.

Kinda just frustrating when the tight blinds do come along this time though and the hand is played out the way it is as we have to fold now.

I guess SB could come along with Q,Jhh/K,Qh and middle pairs..but if they are that tight I Can't see them calling worse OOP.
 
JCgrind

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Based on those stats its fine to play in position imo vs the fish.

Kinda just frustrating when the tight blinds do come along this time though and the hand is played out the way it is as we have to fold now.

I guess SB could come along with Q,Jhh/K,Qh and middle pairs..but if they are that tight I Can't see them calling worse OOP.

agree. once he calls even before i can see his cards i know it was a good fold most of the time. doubt hes gunna call a draw
 
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baudib1

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1. Obviously we have a dominating hand that crushes his range so we 3-bet for value.
2. He's going to give his stack away so he might as well give it to us so we should 3-bet to ISO with a pretty wide range of hands. If he opens 20% and folds to 3-bets 50% that's still a lot of hands and we're still crushing that range. Without AKo you'll find your 3-bet range in this spot is whack.
3. Playing big pots in position with dominating hands is the nuts.
--A. Playing OOP with the intiative isn't really that hot as you're practically forced to cbet a ton of boards that aren't great or just give up. Moreover people in position can float you and you're forced to fire 2/3 OOP with no clue where you stand.

If you think playing OOP with the initiative is tough, then playing OOP without initiative is a nightmare.
-- B. AKo plays better when you get to see all 5 cards and we're more likely to be able to do that by 3-betting and letting him reship his 60 BB stack or to own his ****ing soul postflop.

-- C. What 3-betting pre also does is allow us to play without the illusion or pressures of initiative.
 
JCgrind

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So which set did he have?

55

1. Obviously we have a dominating hand that crushes his range so we 3-bet for value.
2. He's going to give his stack away so he might as well give it to us so we should 3-bet to ISO with a pretty wide range of hands. If he opens 20% and folds to 3-bets 50% that's still a lot of hands and we're still crushing that range. Without AKo you'll find your 3-bet range in this spot is whack.
3. Playing big pots in position with dominating hands is the nuts.
--A. Playing OOP with the intiative isn't really that hot as you're practically forced to cbet a ton of boards that aren't great or just give up. Moreover people in position can float you and you're forced to fire 2/3 OOP with no clue where you stand.

iso is the only reason i wanted to 3b, but like i said, blinds were not doing anything in the 50 hands id played.
lol @ point 3, i agree.


If you think playing OOP with the initiative is tough, then playing OOP without initiative is a nightmare.
-- B. AKo plays better when you get to see all 5 cards and we're more likely to be able to do that by 3-betting and letting him reship his 60 BB stack or to own his ****ing soul postflop.

i think im missing your point, are you talking about him? cos i wasnt oop. this is another reason i dont 3b, cos he is OOP and if he flats pre hes gunna be in fit or fold mode, and then im only really stacking his TP hands, or he binks something retarded and tid. also, i can only guess based on experience with similar noobs cos i didnt have much history in this case, but imo noobs are much more likely to flat 3bs than to 4b (unless they have da nutzzzz)

-- C. What 3-betting pre also does is allow us to play without the illusion or pressures of initiative.
 
Deco

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I Call. A half pot donk on a drawy board is not enough to assign the SB a range of {55,66} whilst the fish is very likely to hold a draw or a weaker pair.

I 3bet pre vs a reg here. Vs a fish it's absolutly criminal not to!
 
JCgrind

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I Call. A half pot donk on a drawy board is not enough to assign the SB a range of {55,66} whilst the fish is very likely to hold a draw or a weaker pair.

I 3bet pre vs a reg here. Vs a fish it's absolutly criminal not to!

flat 65BBs with the intention to call if SB shoves? (ESS was like 150BB i think). tbh i think call is terrible. have to reshove over the fish or fold imo
 
Cafeman

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i knew i was gunna get slammed for not 3bing this pre....
heh :)

Just iso the dude and take his money. Why would you want to leave the blinds to come in with their implied odds hands to stack him too? Plus, are you seriously saying he folds AQo, AJs, TT and stuff? Hell he probs even calls with QJs cos it flops so damn well ;)
 
Deco

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flat 65BBs with the intention to call if SB shoves? (ESS was like 150BB i think). tbh i think call is terrible. have to reshove over the fish or fold imo

Didn't notice SB was deep. Ye shove > Call. Charges draws more.
 
JCgrind

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heh :)

Just iso the dude and take his money. Why would you want to leave the blinds to come in with their implied odds hands to stack him too? Plus, are you seriously saying he folds AQo, AJs, TT and stuff? Hell he probs even calls with QJs cos it flops so damn well ;)

haha no im not. i realise that my stats arent gunna be accurate at all here and its a sampling size error, but still, theyve both gotta be playing uuuuuuber tight OOP or had just been insanely carddead
 
The Messiah

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Standard fold on the flop.

Calling pre is fine generally but when were up against a fish and their are deep stack players yet to act, especially in the blinds, id prefer a 3 bet.
 
Deco

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haha no im not. i realise that my stats arent gunna be accurate at all here and its a sampling size error, but still, theyve both gotta be playing uuuuuuber tight OOP or had just been insanely carddead

MP is the 36/20 right?
He's likely capable of calling with any paint, all suited connectors Axs, all pocketpairs, and all sorts of junk preflop to a 3bet.
 
JCgrind

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MP is the 36/20 right?
He's likely capable of calling with any paint, all suited connectors Axs, all pocketpairs, and all sorts of junk preflop to a 3bet.

Yes MP is the huge noob.
When I was talking about calling ranges in the previous post to which you are referring, I was talking about the guys in the blinds
 
WVHillbilly

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3bet preflop. I've noticed a lot of thread from you where you're flatting AK pre. What's your winrate like with AK?
 
acky100

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Im usually on board with some of your flats when people say OMG AK 3bet, but i'm pretty sure this is a 3bet.

edit:

initiative is the nuts, winning pots uncontested is the nuts. Look at your winrates for cold calling IP, the BB/hand is never really impressive but your 3betting WR should be pretty juicy compared. I could see a flat if he wasn't a noob and was folding to 90% of 3bets or something, but he's seeing the flop oop with half his range, thats a lot of hands you crush.
 
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JCgrind

JCgrind

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3bet preflop. I've noticed a lot of thread from you where you're flatting AK pre. What's your winrate like with AK?

I don't always flat it pre, it's very vil dependent but ye I do a lot.

10NL: AKo 61.85BB/100 over 672 hands, AKs 31BB/100 over 216 hands
25NL: AKo 37.59BB/100 over 792 hands, AKs 216.66BB/100 I've 250 hands

Not sure what a good WR for AK is, any ideas?

Also lol side note, my AQo @ 25NL is 95BB/100 over 767 hands and AQs is 97.93BB/100 over 232. Way bigger than my AK... Lol? Maybe I have a hard time folding it post :/

EDIT: thought I'd look at EV BB/100 for 25nl too...

AKo 110.78/100, AKs 130.42BB/100
 
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