$50 NLHE 6-max: Multi way overpair facing two floaters and a shortstacked shove

$50 NL HE 6-max: Multi way overpair facing two floaters and a shortstacked shove

I suck at multi way pots so I thought I would post this.

About 50 hands in at the table.
UTG: 82/18/2.0 fish that has looked pretty fit or fold so far
BTN: 13/2/0.5 rock that floated me once before with a gutshot in a heads up pot
BB: 21/17/0.7 who plays fairly standard but was half stacked when he stacked someone with middle over TPTK a few hands earlier. Also, they cbet small with middle set so they will not immediately tip off hand strength.
I'm probably about 24/20 and generally open/cbet pretty small.

poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $18.65
Hero (CO): $80.50
BTN: $113.35
SB: $35.45
BB: $59.00

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with J♠ J♦
UTG calls $0.50, Hero raises to $1.85, BTN calls $1.85, 1 fold, BB calls $1.35, UTG calls $1.35

Flop: ($7.65) 9♥ 2♦ 5♣ (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $4.85, BTN calls $4.85, BB calls $4.85, UTG raises to $16.80 all in, Hero ???

The thinking behind my small cbet size is that I can stack UTG with two bets anyways, the board is super dry and I don't need to price out any draws, I'd rather not tip hand strength because I'd rather have the fish call with two overs than fold to a potsized cbet.

I'm not worried about UTG here as I'm pretty sure they are capable of stacking off with 9x and 66-88, TT and I am well ahead of their range. If I am heads up against UTG, this is a snap call. However, I can not come up with that many hands that float me on this flop with players still to act. There are only so many 9x and 66-88, TT hands to go around.

I can't shove because I'm never getting a worse hand to call. Do I call/fold after I put 40% of my stack in? ... or am I giving people at 50nl too much credit and am I never folding this hand?

WurlyQ said:

I can't shove because I'm never getting a worse hand to call.

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This statement confused me, so before I chime in, I want to understand your goal for the hand. Do you want BTN and BB along for the ride and if so, why?

My goal for any hand is always to maximize EV (with some variance reduction). I want them to come along if they don't have equity to call. I can't imagine any hand that I am ahead of that has equity to call almost any bet on this board. I am either well ahead or well behind.

If I shove, there is exactly one hand, TT, that might call that I am ahead of so what is the point of shoving? Two overs is folding whether I call the reraise or shove over the top. 9x and 66-88 are folding to a shove. I want 9x and 66-88 calling because I am well ahead of them.

Sounds like you got it all figured out then. Nevermind, forget I said anything.

The options I have as I see it are fold, call/fold, or call/call. If you think I should be shoving, what is the reason? My biggest problem is identifying the float ranges of BB and BTN against a bet into 3 people. After thinking this over, I think I like a call/fold line the most. However, this makes the turn/river difficult to play when overs hit the board but I don't see a better alternative. I may be too nitty in multi way pots but I'm not sure.

I just call.
As you said before there isn't gunna be anything we beat which calls a shove.

The turn and river can inevitably get fairly tricky to play if the BTN comes along, but hey that's poker. We'd rather get in a difficult spot than shove here and allow our opponents to fold all we have beat and call all that beats us and hence play perfectly against us.

Am I folding to any further bets? I'm pot committed if I call any further bets. I'm basically trying to figure out if I have to stack off against sets here. If someone jams after I call, I fold because that line is so strong. If someone bets on further streets, I think I have to fold but I'm really not sure.

I played another hand where I raised preflop, got called in two places, cbet and got a call and raise at which point I jammed with two overs and the nut flush draw. The villain who called my cbet had a set. Also, I would probably just call with a set if I were in the BTN or SBs situation on such a dry board multi way in the hopes that other people come along or even raise as in this situation.

WurlyQ said:

Am I folding to any further bets? I'm pot committed if I call any further bets. I'm basically trying to figure out if I have to stack off against sets here. If someone jams after I call, I fold because that line is so strong. If someone bets on further streets, I think I have to fold but I'm really not sure.

I played another hand where I raised preflop, got called in two places, cbet and got a call and raise at which point I jammed with two overs and the nut flush draw. The villain who called my cbet had a set. Also, I would probably just call with a set if I were in the BTN or SBs situation on such a dry board multi way in the hopes that other people come along or even raise as in this situation.

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Against the button no way.
Against the BB we have to see how the turn and river action develops.
If we get donked into on the turn by the BB this is fold imo.

I hate these spots as much as you do as I make most my commitment decisions using stack to pot ratios and in multiway pots they just don't work because were against more prospective hands and hence alot more likely beat yet the pot is hugely inflated.

But ye can you really see 89, T9 or A9 betting the turn? With any luck the BB and Btn will go away or they'll check down a hand like A9.

I despise the multi-way pot. Too many players in here, don't like it at all.

PF:
I think bb came in because of the pot odds hoping to get lucky at what seemed like was going to be an action pot.

Utg - I think same as bb. He limps pf with what? If he had AK AA-QQ he is probably going to re-raise pf. He didn't, he just calls. You have JJ, he could have other JJ, unlikely though, so maybe he has 10 10 -88 or AQ-A8.

At these stakes, people are attached to any ace, suited or not.

Flop:
It's checked to you but utg check raises. I'm putting him on A9 and he's reading you like a pos raise pf and cbet with high face cards that missed the flop so he thinks his 9 is good.

If utg is that bad to open limp utg with 22, 55 or 99, I want to be at all of his tables.

BB is staying - why? What range did you put him on? J9-A9 or maybe even something as horrible as A3/A4/A5 - he hits a gut shot straight draw or he has the 5 with A kicker, already stacked someone playing this way and hoping to get lucky?

I wasn't at the table & based off what you've said so far, I just can't put either one on a hand where they are ahead of you based on their play.

Therefore I re-raise ai on flop hoping to isolate utg so I don't have to worry about a suckout by bb.

That's my 2 cents.

Deco said:

Against the button no way.
Against the BB we have to see how the turn and river action develops.
If we get donked into on the turn by the BB this is fold imo.

I hate these spots as much as you do as I make most my commitment decisions using stack to pot ratios and in multiway pots they just don't work because were against more prospective hands and hence alot more likely beat yet the pot is hugely inflated.

But ye can you really see 89, T9 or A9 betting the turn? With any luck the BB and Btn will go away or they'll check down a hand like A9.

Click to expand...

So we stack off against BTN but not BB? If someone reraises the flop or bets more than a small amount on the turn, we have to fold right? or are we stacking off against BTN but not BB? What's the difference in the action or villain stats that make you differentiate between them?

StormRaven said:

I despise the multi-way pot. Too many players in here, don't like it at all.

PF:
I think bb came in because of the pot odds hoping to get lucky at what seemed like was going to be an action pot.

Utg - I think same as bb. He limps pf with what? If he had AK AA-QQ he is probably going to re-raise pf. He didn't, he just calls. You have JJ, he could have other JJ, unlikely though, so maybe he has 10 10 -88 or AQ-A8.

At these stakes, people are attached to any ace, suited or not.

Flop:
It's checked to you but utg check raises. I'm putting him on A9 and he's reading you like a pos raise pf and cbet with high face cards that missed the flop so he thinks his 9 is good.

If utg is that bad to open limp utg with 22, 55 or 99, I want to be at all of his tables.

BB is staying - why? What range did you put him on? J9-A9 or maybe even something as horrible as A3/A4/A5 - he hits a gut shot straight draw or he has the 5 with A kicker, already stacked someone playing this way and hoping to get lucky?

I wasn't at the table & based off what you've said so far, I just can't put either one on a hand where they are ahead of you based on their play.

Therefore I re-raise ai on flop hoping to isolate utg so I don't have to worry about a suckout by bb.

That's my 2 cents.

Click to expand...

My big problem is putting BTN and BB on floating ranges. The problem with shoving is that I don't think any hand we beat except possibly TT is calling us here. Any experience to the contrary with this kind of action is valuable information as my experience at 50nl is still very limited. Calling makes this hand much harder to play but I think we give up too much by shoving.

As you stated, no one has QQ-AA in their range except possibly the BTN but it has to be discounted for them also. I'm basically afraid of sets here as this is exactly how low-medium pockets would be played by both BTN and BB. UTG is an 82/18 drooler so their range is super wide and we are not afraid of them.

I highly doubt BTN nor BB have A2s-A8s in their range after floating my cbet but again, I could be very wrong. My cbet into 3 people is very strong and this flop is rainbow so there are no flush draws. My initial guess at ranges by BTN and BB was something along the lines of 22, 55-TT, 79s-J9s, A9s. After considering their range here, there are enough combinations of hands I beat here that I've realized folding is awful.

I lose about 8% equity if a lesser hand calls me and my EV is higher (~$39.5 vs $36) if someone calls with a lesser hand given these ranges and ignoring implied odds. Therefore I want a call by lesser hands because I think these guys are passive enough that they won't blow me off my hand with lesser hands.

Hand 0: 28.947% 28.65% 00.30% 282456 2970.00 { JJ-55, 22, A9s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, 92s+, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 92o+ }
Hand 1: 71.053% 70.75% 00.30% 697644 2970.00 { JJ }

Hand 0: 24.282% 23.66% 00.63% 3197214 84591.00 { JJ-55, 22, A9s, K9s, Q9s, J9s, T9s, 92s+, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 92o+ }
Hand 1: 62.934% 62.64% 00.29% 8466339 39276.00 { JJ }
Hand 2: 12.784% 12.45% 00.34% 1682466 45315.00 { TT, A9s, J9s, T9s, 97s+ }

WurlyQ said:

So we stack off against BTN but not BB? If someone reraises the flop or bets more than a small amount on the turn, we have to fold right? or are we stacking off against BTN but not BB? What's the difference in the action or villain stats that make you differentiate between them?

Click to expand...

Us and the button are deep so I'm never stacking off to them unless their a huge spewtard.

and ye I fold if someone shoves the flop or bets the turn big. I just can't see this being a bluff.

He is forcing you to fold.If he got a set or two pairs it is better to call your bets and push on the river.
He is short stacked at the moment and he is pushing to get easy chips with a bluff.

Deco said:

Us and the button are deep so I'm never stacking off to them unless their a huge spewtard.

and ye I fold if someone shoves the flop or bets the turn big. I just can't see this being a bluff.

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Yeah that definitely makes sense. I had interpreted your statement to be the opposite of what you meant so I was confused.

After this exact action, you cannot fold against the UTG with that stats and with that chip count, I will shove and iso but its close, I'm not that happy about it