$50 NLHE 6-max: my move?

6 handed table of new players
really playing loose passive.

Hero: I arrived a bit late and had built my stack to about 60BB (we buy-in for $20, which is not great I know, but it's a novice table and that's how everyone feels comfortable playing) taking advantage of the passiveness to take pots down post flop.

Villain: Had been crushing it before my arrival and was about 100BB deep

I had noticed that villain was beginning to push back against my somewhat obvious steels and post-flop bets. Had also seen him show down an over pair on a pretty wet board, as well as play top pair very aggressively.

I have Ad7d
Action come to me in the small blind with one limper in front - raise to $2.00
Hero calls from BB
Limper folds

Heads-up to flop pot = $4.50
Flop:
A83 rainbow

I bet $2.50
villain re-raises to $5.00

My thoughts at that time: He thinks I am trying to steal from the SB. Range includes Qx-Ax, middle pocket pair, air.


What should I do?

folding > small 3b > calling

Just fold pre

fold A7ss when its limped by one person to you in the sb.... in a live game?

youre 60bb deep OOP...yes, fold pre.

Yeah in a 6max game vs noobs. AXs is like the nuts no way is this a fold pre IMO. Not to mention that being OOP is actually kinda totally irrelevant here- the reason we don't like being OOP is because our opponents can make life difficult for us. Cept were no stupid so we can (and do) play suited aces from the SB (as if you fold A7s BvB).

But jchoop, this isn't BvB, there's a limper. If he called hell have position too?
Correct, a weak tight passive player is going to have position on us also. Again, not an issue bEcause he isn't going to put the pressure on and is going to play face up

We are not folding pre, thats just silly

lol fold pre obv, you're OOP so you cant extract value postflop when you flop good and he'll float you a lot coz thats what limpers do

bgomez89 said:

youre 60bb deep OOP...yes, fold pre.

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Yep. Only play this if villain & limper are huge fish.

not again lmao, folding pre is bad when theres a limper who is clearly a fish

nah but since fish call a lot we need more of a hand to play OOP as opposed to IP where we play better and can apply more pressure when we see fit

its a fold, you lot are all lagtards

true only AA and KK vs fish OOP right? coz they put us in tough spots all the time?

Campbell92 said:

its a fold, you lot are all lagtards

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I know this table. I am a fish myself, but I hope I have come far enough to call myself a Pirhana Ax suited with only one limper in front is not a fold at this table. Often a raise will simply steal blinds. At the very least, it will increase my equity by limiting the number seeing the flop (which is what happened here). That said, it can/does lead to the situation I am posting about.

Having thought some about it here's how I would see it now. Pre-flop debate is valid, but I am interested in the post-flop decision making given that I raised.

With a few days to think about it, I agree with JChoop Fold>> 3bet>>> call.
Obviously, I know what happened, but trying to be objective, I think that the raise puts his range at A8, A3, 88, 33 (two pair or a set, but probs not AA given his pre-flop call and not 3bet); maybe Ax and trying to push me off, maybe air. Trouble is, I am only ahead of air, and the bottom end of Ax (not including A3). Call is stupid, b/c given stack sizes, at this point it's all going in one way or another, so go big now, or go home. The question can be boiled down to - "am I willing to shove my stack with top pair weak kicker?" Reasonable analysis??

Had I thought of it this way while under the gun, I would have folded. Oh well.

Turn was a blank - I bet 1/2 pot because it made no sense at all to call and then check to his bet.

River another A. So now I am on a set of aces and pot committed (although I was at least 75% sure by now that we both held an A). Shove

He had A8 = full house, but I was basically drawing dead from the flop.

WOW...great post...your ending question is one I have stuck on several yellow post it's along the top of my screen.. there have been many times I just flip them all up and over and ignore them... because in dealing with some of these peeps it doesn't matter if you can't get the correct read or they are playing/running so well that...sometimes it's just a no win situation

I limp in pre. 5 to 1 odds!

I'm not raising, A7s would be a bit thin 100bb deep (I probably still limp) but 60bb deep its definitly not a raise. Especially as the limper is probably even shallower.

As played I fold the flop, villain has no history of bluff raiseing and could easily do this with strong aces that make up alot of his range given he's called a pretty strong raise multiway.

Don;t hate calling and folding to turn action as I doubt bluffs keep barreling and the board is so dry but its very meh.

Cheecho said:

I know this table. I am a fish myself, but I hope I have come far enough to call myself a Pirhana Ax suited with only one limper in front is not a fold at this table. Often a raise will simply steal blinds. At the very least, it will increase my equity by limiting the number seeing the flop (which is what happened here). That said, it can/does lead to the situation I am posting about.

Having thought some about it here's how I would see it now. Pre-flop debate is valid, but I am interested in the post-flop decision making given that I raised.

With a few days to think about it, I agree with JChoop Fold>> 3bet>>> call.
Obviously, I know what happened, but trying to be objective, I think that the raise puts his range at A8, A3, 88, 33 (two pair or a set, but probs not AA given his pre-flop call and not 3bet); maybe Ax and trying to push me off, maybe air. Trouble is, I am only ahead of air, and the bottom end of Ax (not including A3). Call is stupid, b/c given stack sizes, at this point it's all going in one way or another, so go big now, or go home. The question can be boiled down to - "am I willing to shove my stack with top pair weak kicker?" Reasonable analysis??

Had I thought of it this way while under the gun, I would have folded. Oh well.

Turn was a blank - I bet 1/2 pot because it made no sense at all to call and then check to his bet.

River another A. So now I am on a set of aces and pot committed (although I was at least 75% sure by now that we both held an A). Shove

He had A8 = full house, but I was basically drawing dead from the flop.

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ye if you dont wanna give him credit just yet, you 3b small (min is fine) so you know where you are in the hand. if he comes over the top, you fold. if he calls, you check/fold to everything except a 1BB turn bet lol

Dear god please don't fold pre. Limping is fine if you don't want to raise we have a hand that plays really well multiway in a pot that will likely be multiway. As played pretty easy flop call. Turn?

Cheecho said:

I know this table. I am a fish myself, but I hope I have come far enough to call myself a Pirhana Ax suited with only one limper in front is not a fold at this table. Often a raise will simply steal blinds. At the very least, it will increase my equity by limiting the number seeing the flop (which is what happened here). That said, it can/does lead to the situation I am posting about.

Having thought some about it here's how I would see it now. Pre-flop debate is valid, but I am interested in the post-flop decision making given that I raised.

With a few days to think about it, I agree with JChoop Fold>> 3bet>>> call.
Obviously, I know what happened, but trying to be objective, I think that the raise puts his range at A8, A3, 88, 33 (two pair or a set, but probs not AA given his pre-flop call and not 3bet); maybe Ax and trying to push me off, maybe air. Trouble is, I am only ahead of air, and the bottom end of Ax (not including A3). Call is stupid, b/c given stack sizes, at this point it's all going in one way or another, so go big now, or go home. The question can be boiled down to - "am I willing to shove my stack with top pair weak kicker?" Reasonable analysis??

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Ok so you admit you're not a strong player but you want to put yourself in a difficult/losing situation? I can see doing this if you we're deeper but you're short and OOP, just fold. I know you want comments for post flop but you have to understand that usually difficult spots happen because you made mistakes on previous streets making the current situation a bit irrelevant. If you really want my opinion though, I'd say fold flop>>>>>>>>>>>>>call>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3bet.

Also lets think about his range. What raises this flop? AJ+, A8, sets. We can discount AA/AK since he probably raises those pre though. This looks like his range is kind of polarized I.e. he either has hands that beat you or straight up bluffs. Now what's more logical, a guy who you described as 'loose/passive' raising a really dry flop with air or a hand in his range that beats you? Obviously the answer is to fold. But let's say we want to 3bet, what does that accomplish? Well it turns our hand into a bluff against a range that never folds and the only part of his range that it will fold out is so small that it's worth giving up. This is why id rather call before I'd 3bet

jchoop said:

ye if you dont wanna give him credit just yet, you 3b small (min is fine) so you know where you are in the hand. if he comes over the top, you fold. if he calls, you check/fold to everything except a 1BB turn bet lol

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Is this a level? Betting/raising for information is already bad but now you want 3bet/fold when we're so short just to 'know where you are in the hand'? That's pretty terrible imo.

hackmeplz said:

Dear god please don't fold pre. Limping is fine if you don't want to raise we have a hand that plays really well multiway in a pot that will likely be multiway. As played pretty easy flop call. Turn?

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Uh. What exactly is it about our hand that makes it play well in multiway pots? Is it our ace with a shitty kicker or do you just wet yourself anytime you get something soooooooooted?

What makes a hand play well in multiway pots can be many things but the ones most people recognize are ones that have both straight(by connecting) and flush possibilities. This combined with overall hand strength, the right stack sizes/implied odds, and position make a hand play really well multiway. Lets see what we have:

[x] suited
[ ] connected
[ ] good hand strength
[ ] good implied odds
[ ] position

But I guess I'm just pulling shit out of my ass, how about you tell me why A7s plays well with multiple people, short stack sizes and being OOP.

bgomez89 said:

Uh. What exactly is it about our hand that makes it play well in multiway pots? Is it our ace with a shitty kicker or do you just wet yourself anytime you get something soooooooooted?

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We get insane odds and generally make the best flushes/2pairs when we hit them.

bgomez89 said:

What makes a hand play well in multiway pots can be many things but the ones most people recognize are ones that have both straight(by connecting) and flush possibilities. This combined with overall hand strength, the right stack sizes/implied odds, and position make a hand play really well multiway. Lets see what we have:

[x] suited
[ ] connected
[ ] good hand strength
[ ] good implied odds
[ ] position

But I guess I'm just pulling shit out of my ass, how about you tell me why A7s plays well with multiple people, short stack sizes and being OOP.

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We're getting 5:1 on a call. In terms of good hand strength, we are up against a limper (who probably has a wide range AND we have a skill edge against postflop) and a random hand in the BB. You don't think A7s has good hand strength in that spot? If we don't have good implied odds we can take it down a lot when no one hits anything. Being oop sucks obviously, but getting 5:1 against a fish and a random hand 3-way is going to more than make up for being oop.

So basically you advocate always at least limping in with a suited ace

bgomez89 said:

Is this a level? Betting/raising for information is already bad but now you want 3bet/fold when we're so short just to 'know where you are in the hand'? That's pretty terrible imo. .

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I agree, which is why i refer you to my initial post

jchoop said:

folding > small 3b > calling

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note OP is a self diagnosed fish. to me, when i read "taking advantage of the passiveness to take pots down post flop.", i assume OP actually has an idea and in fact is a lot better than everyone at his game- which is why preflop was fine imo. since we now know he doesnt run over the games, ye folding works, but postflop? at least when he does it my way he gets out of the hand for 15/20 bigs. what the fk is he doing if he calls? hoping the passive opponent who decided to be aggressive for once goes back to being passive on the turn?
turn is a blank. well he called the flop, turn changes nothing so i guess were calling here too.
river gives us trips and by now more than half our stacks in the middle. check/call it is. oops we just got stacked for 60bigs. if only we folded the flop.

bgomez89 said:

So basically you advocate always at least limping in with a suited ace

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When there is already a limper or two in the pot and we're in the small blind, ye pretty much.

jchoop said:

note OP is a self diagnosed fish. to me, when i read "taking advantage of the passiveness to take pots down post flop.", i assume OP actually has an idea and in fact is a lot better than everyone at his game- which is why preflop was fine imo. since we now know he doesnt run over the games, ye folding works, but postflop? at least when he does it my way he gets out of the hand for 15/20 bigs. what the fk is he doing if he calls? hoping the passive opponent who decided to be aggressive for once goes back to being passive on the turn?
turn is a blank. well he called the flop, turn changes nothing so i guess were calling here too.
river gives us trips and by now more than half our stacks in the middle. check/call it is. oops we just got stacked for 60bigs. if only we folded the flop.

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3betting is burning money against villains range because either he calls and then we have to maneuver the turn and river which most likely ends up with us either wasting more money or c/f. The small amount time he folds are hands we're already beating. At least with calling we keep in some of the air. The point is pretty moot though since you and I both agree folding is superior.