$50 NLHE 6-max: JJ button vs BB.

forsakenone

forsakenone

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villain is a has reg like stats, playing 24/23/12 AF.

888 Poker - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $101.42
CO: $50.00
Hero (BTN): $50.75
SB: $50.00
BB: $59.54

SB posts SB $0.25, BB posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has J:heart: J:diamond:

fold, fold, Hero raises to $1.31, fold, BB raises to $4.68, Hero raises to $12.50, BB raises to $59.54, Hero ??
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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3B + 3BST would be nice.

imo you can't fold after 4 betting.. if you were going to fold to a 5 bet then flat?
 
fletchdad

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Yea, folding now is meh. How many hands you got on him?

I think now it comes down to what you think he is doing and what you think he thinks you are doing, if you have enough history with him to be there. Is he seeing your 4B as a re-steal? Is he ONLY doing this strong?

Yucky place to be now IMO, and I would not be happy either way. I understand your play but you have to be ready to call the shove here, with good reason, otherwise just flat his 3B I am thinking.
 
sixpeppers

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I hate all of the responses that say you can't fold now. Truth is its unlikely that folding is the best play but sometimes you can 4bet for value and fold to the 5bet, probably just not here. Take the advice of getting it in here, but also don't listen to the "you can't fold now" BS, you want to make the best decision, not let your ego tell you to continue playing JJ against the odds versus a range of QQ+AK.
 
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baudib1

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Do you really think this guy's shoving range is as tight as QQ+/AK BB vs. BTN?
 
fletchdad

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OK, I have to admit that in this spot I am more often than not insecure at how to proceed. As will be apparent in my post here probably....

On the one hand it is so possible that I am WA cause of BTN vs Blind. But my do we want to 4 bet/fold here? Cause if he (as seen) 5 bet shoves, we are WA/WB, and is he not shoving AA-QQ / AK more often then 5 bet bluffing? Which means we have to fold. BUT isnt this a great spot to 5 bet/shove bluff for this kind of player vs us which means we have to call......

I am thinking when we 4 bet, have to already know what we will do vs his 5bet..... and I am thinking maybe a smaller 5 bet means we want to fold - i.e. he is looking for our shove, but his shove looks like he is utilizing enough FE that his bluffs are gonna be found mostly here. Is a player at 50nl gonna be thinking that far that he will 5 bet shove with AA-KK cause he knows we think it looks like he is putting FE pressure on us, so we call??? (I hope I am making sense)

TL:DR cliffs

JJ is hard for me to play, and do I want to get it in pre especially vs a agro decent reg....
 
dj11

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I play this different pre.

I made my stab at it, villain makes a deeper stab, and where you want to try to make the deepest stab, I meerly call. Before I get totally committed, I want some more info, and that only comes by seeing the flop, where I retain options.......
 
sixpeppers

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Do you really think this guy's shoving range is as tight as QQ+/AK BB vs. BTN?

No, thats why I said we should stack off for sure. I am saying that IF we thought his range was only that we could fold.
 
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baudib1

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No, thats why I said we should stack off for sure. I am saying that IF we thought his range was only that we could fold.

OK. To be clear, I don't think we should be folding JJ in a BTN vs. Blinds in situation (in 6-max) very often after 4-betting unless the guy is a nit and a 24/23 probably isn't going to be restricted to QQ+/AK in this spot. If we had raised UTG I'm fine with 4-bet/folding (probably 4-bet a smaller size tho).
 
hackmeplz

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This is not a yucky spot at all. Sure sometimes you run into the nuts but this is an over-aggro 50nl 6m regular. He's most likely a monkey that doesn't like to fold. Stack here and feel great about it. Oh also what sixpeppers said is completely right although he kinda misses the point. Most people who say that are more saying "when deciding whether to 4b, you should consider what to do to a 5b". It's rarely a good idea to make a play, have something super standard happen, and then go into wtf mode. That said if he messed up and just 4b without thinking it's fine to reconsider and it's possible there are spots it would be a fold. Definitely not a fold here though with these positions and this villain.
 
fletchdad

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This is not a yucky spot at all. Sure sometimes you run into the nuts but this is an over-aggro 50nl 6m regular. He's most likely a monkey that doesn't like to fold. Stack here and feel great about it. Oh also what sixpeppers said is completely right although he kinda misses the point. Most people who say that are more saying "when deciding whether to 4b, you should consider what to do to a 5b". It's rarely a good idea to make a play, have something super standard happen, and then go into wtf mode. That said if he messed up and just 4b without thinking it's fine to reconsider and it's possible there are spots it would be a fold. Definitely not a fold here though with these positions and this villain.


4 bet w/o having a plan if you are 5 bet? Or what are you saying here?
 
dj11

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24/23/12 is NOT overly agro at 6max. A case can be made that he is a bit of a nit if anything, but his stats are within normal operating parameters at 6max. Average to slightly below average...

In another thread OP suggested he has been playing 34ish/xx/xx (IIRC) and thus would be the agro one at 6 max. And since the villain here is supposedly a reg, it should be assumed that villain has a tracker, and is playing back at our Agro Hero.
 
jbbb

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24/23/12 is NOT overly agro at 6max. A case can be made that he is a bit of a nit if anything,


Go on then, make the case that this guy playing 24/23/12 is a nit.
 
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Do you think it would have made any real difference?

Doesn't matter what difference it made in this hand if at all.

I just don't like it in general. Maybe it's standard at $50nl though...
 
hackmeplz

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24/23/12 is NOT overly agro at 6max. A case can be made that he is a bit of a nit if anything, but his stats are within normal operating parameters at 6max. Average to slightly below average...

Seriously? It's not super aggro but it is definitely on the aggro side, the average vpip for a winning reg is typically in the 18-22 region. Also I realized my terminology was vague. I meant he was over aggro AND a 50nl 6m reg both of which point towards him being a monkey without a fold button. One of the biggest leaks the average 50nl 6m reg has is just trying to win every pot.
 
Jagsti

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DJ, 24/23/12 is nowhere near a nit.
 
dj11

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DJ, 24/23/12 is nowhere near a nit.

I made an assumption here;

This reg is seen only at 6max games, where 24/xx/xx might be based on full table games, and I do not remember ever seeing a discussion about vpip and 6max vs fr interpretations. So while 24/xx... at fr would certainly be considered on the loose side, is it at 5max? My assumption is based on it not being the same interpretation one makes for a fr based vpip.

Does anyone have pure 6max statistics? What I tend to see is an Average VPIP for the folks I see when I 6max to be nearer 30/xx.

Probably deserves its own thread that.....

I do not have enough hands since my pc crashed in Nov, to provide any significant numbers for such a 'study'. But by its (6max) nature, I also assume that we all, in general, play 5 max with a higher VP than we do at fr.
 
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Jagsti

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Well op doesn't give any indication that he has collected hands playing FR, therefore we have to go on the information he has supplied and infer that these stats are purely based on 6max imo.
 
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baudib1

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24/23 is probably on the TAGgish/normal side for this game, keeping in mind that NL50 6-max is going to be a lot more aggro than NL10 6-max.
 
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Aldito

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Well op doesn't give any indication that he has collected hands playing FR, therefore we have to go on the information he has supplied and infer that these stats are purely based on 6max imo.

Or just as easily assume the stats are purely from 5max

*which would make him looser lol my bad
 
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WVHillbilly

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I hate all of the responses that say you can't fold now. Truth is its unlikely that folding is the best play but sometimes you can 4bet for value and fold to the 5bet, probably just not here. Take the advice of getting it in here, but also don't listen to the "you can't fold now" BS, you want to make the best decision, not let your ego tell you to continue playing JJ against the odds versus a range of QQ+AK.
If it's a mistake to never fold JJ after 4betting this big (hate that 4bet size if you're ever thinking about folding btw) it's not much of one. We have 36% equity against QQ+/AK and here we need 37.5% to break even. BTN v blind I just don't think we can narrow almost anyone's range that much, let alone a guy with a 12 AF.

Also I think we've seen enough hands from forsakenone to know that his image is likely shit and he's never going to get credit for a real hand from anyone paying attention.
 
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