$50 NLHE 6-max: I dont like my line. Should we almost always bet the turn?

Munchrs

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$50 NL HE 6-max: I dont like my line. Should we almost always bet the turn?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 93/40/20

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HAND 1
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$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Poker Tools by Stoxpoker - Hand Details

BB: $37.64 (75.3 bb)
MP: $50 (100 bb)
CO: $45.59 (91.2 bb)
Hero (BTN): $50 (100 bb)
SB: $94.04 (188.1 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K:club: K:heart:
MP folds, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, SB folds, BB calls $1.75, CO folds
Flop: ($5.25) 8:spade: Q:spade: A:club: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3, BB calls $3
Turn: ($11.25) T:heart: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks
River: ($11.25) 7:spade: (2 players)
BB bets $11.25, Hero folds
Results:[spoil] $11.25 pot ($0.56 rake)
Final Board: 8:spade: Q:spade: A:club: T:heart: 7:spade:
[/spoil]
 
Mase31683

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This is a spot that I cbet almost 0%. Villain gives us credit for an ace a lot, and betting here folds out the hands we beat, keeps in the hands that beat us. Granted there's a flush draw, but he's not going away for one cbet very often if he has that anyway is he?

Checking the flop then betting the turn can extract some value from a queen that may now think they're best, and also will likely lead villain to check river again to us with most of his range, and we can decide whether or not to bet the river, (I wouldn't against anyone who thinks at all, since again it should limit his range to >KK).

As played, I vote for checking the turn. It's WA/WB, which makes me want to check for pot control and keeping his range as wide as possible. If we bet we want either 1) A worse hand to call, 2) A better hand to fold. I don't think a turn bet accomplishes either of these, and basically forces villain to play optimally. A queen will certainly ditch to our 2nd barrell, but that's what we want to call. A flush draw may fold, and forfeit their equity, but they also might call and then we're in a massive reverse-implied odds spot. A weak ace is the only hand that might fold to our 2nd barrel, but it might actually take 3. And there's also hands that already own us, like two pairs and sets that are never folding. For all those reasons I like a turn check.

When the flush draw gets there and villain leads into us, gotta lay it down.
 
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Zybomb

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As played I fold.

I prefer checking behind the flop with the intent of calling a turn bet.
 
WVHillbilly

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I mean, I might bet for value against a guy with these stats but if I did I would probably bet the turn as well.
 
KardKlub

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is that over 20 hands?

As played you had to bet the turn. Your position in the hand and his range all works for you.

2nd check. Thats means you have the nuts right there so bet. If he raises i fold, other than that it's value town.

You don't really want to give any free cards on this board either.

Plus your always c-betting this board against this type of player because I think its harder to call a turn bet, when he probably bets than it is to double barrell yourself to 2 checks.

The board is just too draw heavy to give a fish free cards. Plus your the pfr so an Ace fits your range perfectly. And his call and check tells me he's drawing or hit his queen.
 
S93

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If you bet the flop i think i like betting the turn aswell.
My default play would be just to check back the flop and then bet the turn and river for value or calling if he bets turn/river.
But against this guy,since we know his range is huge and is probably gonna call with basicly any 8x,any Qx any PP and a bunch of gutshots and FD i like cbetting, barreling turn and then checking back river since its kinda hard to get 3streets of value even against a maniac like this.
 
Munchrs

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is that over 20 hands?

As played you had to bet the turn. Your position in the hand and his range all works for you.

2nd check. Thats means you have the nuts right there so bet. If he raises i fold, other than that it's value town.

You don't really want to give any free cards on this board either.

Plus your always c-betting this board against this type of player because I think its harder to call a turn bet, when he probably bets than it is to double barrell yourself to 2 checks.

The board is just too draw heavy to give a fish free cards. Plus your the pfr so an Ace fits your range perfectly. And his call and check tells me he's drawing or hit his queen.

i dont really understand why we are always cbetting this board against a fish, checking the flop behind would make it easier to call a turn bet as there are now more bluffs/semi bluffs in his range that we beat.

I just dont understand your reasoning at all.
 
KardKlub

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You raised pre flop, why wouldn't you try to represent a big Ace, you did raise preflop and he just called.

As it happens you have second top pair and there are alot of other hands villain could be holding which doesn't have an ace.

The draws more worrying than an ace, as with his stats if he had an ace he would prob donk bet you.

So you must c-bet to get value from drawing hands and for them to call the bet a mistake. The flop is just to draw heavy

When he checks the turn his story isn't telling me he has a good hand (Yet) so you must double barrell. The bet here is so much bigger to call which makes it harder for drawing hands to do so.

Why do you need a fish to semi bluff you or bluff you? He'll call you down with worse rubbish than that,

As on this board if you checked the flop called/checked the turn, what would you do on the river when the spade arrives? and he bets?

you'd still be wasting money (small or not) on a difficult spot when you could have been making him do that.
 
bgomez89

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i dont really understand why we are always cbetting this board against a fish, checking the flop behind would make it easier to call a turn bet as there are now more bluffs/semi bluffs in his range that we beat.

I just dont understand your reasoning at all.

I agree with you and I'm definitely going to check the flop. Villain probably has a bunch of Ax Qx PPs and. suiteds in his range. Turn id call if he bets because judging by his af he's way aggro so it could be a bluff/semi bluff and then I'm calling a small bet on the river but will fold to a big bet
 
NineLions

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I'm with WV and Sindri; I probably bet flop and turn against someone with these stats. There's a lot of Aces in his range, but there's also a lot of Queens and 8s and flush draws. His lack of raising or betting out doesn't mean much given his aggression frequency; he likes to call.

His preflop stats are indicative of someone who will play any two suited cards so when he actually bets out and the flush is there on the river, I probably fold there as well, even if we had bet the turn and he called.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I think one thing to remember in this spot is that if the fish plays any Ax hand and any suited hand, he has top pair here about 3 times more often than he has a flush draw. And he'll play both kind of hands passively.

Which means I do prefer to play this as WA/WB and check back the flop.
 
WVHillbilly

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I think one thing to remember in this spot is that if the fish plays any Ax hand and any suited hand, he has top pair here about 3 times more often than he has a flush draw. And he'll play both kind of hands passively.

Which means I do prefer to play this as WA/WB and check back the flop.

If he were your normal 40 VPIP fish I'd agree but he's playing 93% of his hands and I don't think him limp calling rules many of those out. I think we can actually get value from this guy with less that TP.
 
c9h13no3

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I bet/bet/gay-bet this board depending on the river card, especially if his fold to c-bet is low. Just so many queens with straight draws, gutshots that turned pairs, flush draws, random crap in his range that we can get value from.
 
BelgoSuisse

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If he were your normal 40 VPIP fish I'd agree but he's playing 93% of his hands and I don't think him limp calling rules many of those out. I think we can actually get value from this guy with less that TP.

Ok, getting value from Qx is a decent reason to bet. Getting value from flush draws is not, because we don't have that much equity vs. those anyway, and because we are value-owning ourselves 3 times more often vs. Ax than we are getting value from flush draws.

Ax represent 15% of ATC. Any two spade cards represents about 6% of ATC.
 
S93

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Ok, getting value from Qx is a decent reason to bet. Getting value from flush draws is not, because we don't have that much equity vs. those anyway, and because we are value-owning ourselves 3 times more often vs. Ax than we are getting value from flush draws.

Ax represent 15% of ATC. Any two spade cards represents about 6% of ATC.
And any 8x,any Qx,any SS and any PP represent roughly 27% of ATC.
are we really expecting him to fold any of thouse to a cbet?
 
T

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Without imagining the possibilities that the villain has in this case if you were to think about the hand from his perspective, you looked weak. The preflop bet would have suggested to me that you had a high pocket pair, but your flop bet size seemed to be in the middle (not high as in I have this and want to take the pot now, or value bet--which would be dangerous since the flush draw is possible). This would give an indication that your pocket pair was either KK or JJ. Your check on the turn made you look confused and weak, which might have gave him the extra initiative to take control on the river.

Good laydown though. It's hard for a lot of people to do that!
 
WVHillbilly

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And any 8x,any Qx,any SS and any PP represent roughly 27% of ATC.
are we really expecting him to fold any of thouse to a cbet?

I think you can reasonably add in 9T/TJ/J9 as well.
 
KardKlub

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A fish won't call you down with top pair, he would min raise you and he wouldn't bet the river when the flush card hit without a flush. He would be too scared that was why you didn't bet the turn because you missed and now on the river you probably have him beat.

All weak player check back a flush river without actually reading what went on in the hand if they don't have the flush.

So i think we can discount an A from his hand
 
Munchrs

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A fish won't call you down with top pair, he would min raise you and he wouldn't bet the river when the flush card hit without a flush. He would be too scared that was why you didn't bet the turn because you missed and now on the river you probably have him beat.

All weak player check back a flush river without actually reading what went on in the hand if they don't have the flush.

So i think we can discount an A from his hand
a flush hit the river, there is straight possibilities and a pot sized bet. I honestly dont think we win here more that 20% at most. Unless i had a read that villian bluffs rivers with PSB then i dold as we need to be right greater than 33% of the time that our high pair is good on a wet board.
 
KardKlub

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i never said it didn't. I would fold 100% once the flush card hits. But That was why you needed to apply pressure on him on the earlier streets so you wouldn't need to do this.

A fish won't fet a straight on a flush board on the river.
 
R

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My humble opinion:

Flop: This guy calls a ton, sees a ton of flops. Yes he could have any ace, but this is a pretty drawey board and we have to charge him to draw if he is drawing.

He could have an ace, but then again we could get run over by a car if we leave our house today. His check generaly signifies weakness. He didnt check-raise, he just called so maybe its a very fishy chase or an ace.

On the turn as I see it, you played it well. The ten makes a straight even more likely, a possible 2 pair combo, if we bet he might have given up on his flush draw if thats what he was drawing to but wer getting involved in a big pot without a big hand here.

And in my humble experience, if he leads out ont he river with a big fat raise like that, these unimaginative opponents usually have it. In this case prob a flush.

I think your turn check was a good pot control move and by the river, your hand pretty much had no more showdown value.

Good fold imo.
 
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