$50 NLHE 6-max: Flop nut OESD OOP, cbet or c/c vs LAG(tard)

Cafeman

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No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed)

Button ($50.34)
SB ($44.90)
BB ($52.25)
Hero (UTG) ($54.67)
MP ($47.96) - 41/31/2, 200 hands.

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J
spade.gif
, 10
spade.gif

Hero bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.75) 7
club.gif
, Q
diamond.gif
, K
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero ?

I'd already ticked sit out next BB because this guy was turning into a pita. However, I picked up a playable hand so figured I'd play it. Of course, he called :)

He'd previously reraised me a couple of times on the flop, neither time I got to see what he had. So the question is, could a case be made for check/calling (or maybe even c/r) here? If we do bet out, and he reraises, what is our plan?
 
JOEBOB69

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I would C\C flop prob C\fold turn if it bricks.
 
acky100

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I honestly dont know what is right here but i hate getting in to trouble OOP. If he will pay you off when you hit an A or 9 then check calling flop might be okay but if you're gonna be scared of the flush card when it hits you might as well not bother, and if he's scared of a flush card you wont get paid off for a straight anyways...

I think in game i bet and hope he doesnt reraise but i'm a drooler. I wouldn't bet if i knew he would raise my bet a lot though as i wouldnt be happy stacking with less than 8 clean outs.
 
acky100

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actually if hes already raised some of our flop bets its maybe best to just forget about betting out, check calling is probably better, check raising wouldnt be bad if we have some FE i think.

edit: should of read thread title, i dont like betting at all now i know he's a LAG unless when he 3bets us we have a good bit of fold equity and could shove profitably but we probably dont if he's a retard.
 
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RVladimiro

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He'd previously reraised me a couple of times on the flop, neither time I got to see what he had. So the question is, could a case be made for check/calling (or maybe even c/r) here? If we do bet out, and he reraises, what is our plan?

Does that mean we folded before? If we did, a check/raise or bet/shove would be pretty scary for him.

I think in game i bet and hope he doesnt reraise but i'm a drooler. I wouldn't bet if i knew he would raise my bet a lot though as i wouldnt be happy stacking with less than 8 clean outs.

On the other hand this is a very good point.
 
Cafeman

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edit: should of read thread title, i dont like betting at all now i know he's a LAG unless when he 3bets us we have a good bit of fold equity and could shove profitably but we probably dont if he's a retard.
Yeah we don't know, and I shouldn't have put "tard" in the title. I suppose I wanted to convey that he was perhaps spewy - although I'm not sure how much after the flop tbh, because I didn't see a lot go to showdown. His 3bet ~ 12%.

I wondered about the c/r or bet/shove options, because we know we aren't drawing dead. The only problem is we might be in a drawing race (at best), and if so, most likely behind any range that would call a shove.
 
WVHillbilly

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It's a pretty shitty board for him to be bluff raising you on and your equity isn't really that great against the type of hands he'd be raising with (I'd say you're around 30% even if he raises all his gutters/queens/FDs). In other words he'd have to be bluffing a shit ton to make this anything other than a bet/fold imo.
 
Cafeman

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It's a pretty shitty board for him to be bluff raising you on and your equity isn't really that great against the type of hands he'd be raising with (I'd say you're around 30% even if he raises all his gutters/queens/FDs). In other words he'd have to be bluffing a shit ton to make this anything other than a bet/fold imo.
OK, well in the heat of the moment I did just that.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed)

Button ($50.34)
SB ($44.90)
BB ($52.25)
Hero (UTG) ($54.67)
MP ($47.96)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J
spade.gif
, 10
spade.gif

Hero bets $1.50, MP calls $1.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($3.75) 7
club.gif
, Q
diamond.gif
, K
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $2.80, MP raises $11, Hero folds

Total pot: $9.35

Results:
MP didn't show
Outcome: MP won $16.95

Didn't feel very heroic though lol
 
bgomez89

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yeah wp. Move seats though, having a maniac to your left sucks. I think the CO is open, why didnt you switch?
 
ben_rhyno

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Agreed with others b/f, but if it was rainbow, i'd be inclined to b/shove if he was really aggro
 
B

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Looks good, if he raised to like something like $6 I'd call and c-r a lot of turns.
 
c9h13no3

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Am I the only one that thinks this line kinda sucks? I don't really like x/c or x/r, but b/f against a guy who never folds just seems kinda gross.
 
B

baudib1

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I'm not happy with folding tbh but the raise size is lol.
 
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Gunner57

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This is why it would be better to C/C the flop.

You bet the flop if you think you will be able to get villain to fold hands with small or mid pair (I am not so sure this fish would). This flop hit his range either with a Q or a K. I would only be ok with the bet on the flop if you would be able to fold if raised as villain is likely shoving turn with his top pair or A high flush draw all of which beat you.

bet/fold is a play I think is better than b/c or bet/shove here.

In general, when is it appropriate to bet/fold?
 
WVHillbilly

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This is why it would be better to C/C the flop.

You bet the flop if you think you will be able to get villain to fold hands with small or mid pair (I am not so sure this fish would). This flop hit his range either with a Q or a K. I would only be ok with the bet on the flop if you would be able to fold if raised as villain is likely shoving turn with his top pair or A high flush draw all of which beat you.

bet/fold is a play I think is better than b/c or bet/shove here.

In general, when is it appropriate to bet/fold?

Seriously did you just take three different sides on this one hand and then ask a question??? :confused:
 
jbbb

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Raise size is fu*ked. Was he a bad player or is this raise size unusual?
41/31 is pretty dam loose so I may be inclined to bet/shove if I had reads this guy was always 'making moves' but against an unkown with no reads (who I know plays 41/31) i'd probably just b/f due to the large raise size and board texture.
 
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Billy Madison - Ultimate Insult (Academic Decathlon) - YouTube

Seriously did you just take three different sides on this one hand and then ask a question??? :confused:

Sorry the post was a little more than incoherent.

What I was trying to say is the best play is Check/Call > Bet/Fold > Bet/call or Bet/Shove.

Reason why C/C is good is we have value and flop hit villains range. We want to see more cards

Bet/Fold only good if you want to turn your hand into a semi-bluff (I dont want to say that a Bet/Fold is never right play)

Then I wanted to ask if there is a general rule about bet/folding. I have noticed the last few sessions I have been doing more bet/folding and wondering if there are any articles that can help articulate when best to fold when raised.
 
WVHillbilly

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Sorry the post was a little more than incoherent.

What I was trying to say is the best play is Check/Call > Bet/Fold > Bet/call or Bet/Shove.

Reason why C/C is good is we have value and flop hit villains range. We want to see more cards

Bet/Fold only good if you want to turn your hand into a semi-bluff (I dont want to say that a Bet/Fold is never right play)

Then I wanted to ask if there is a general rule about bet/folding. I have noticed the last few sessions I have been doing more bet/folding and wondering if there are any articles that can help articulate when best to fold when raised.
Well at least I understand what you're say with this post. :)

Still don't like ch/calling though. He's really not going to be bluff raising that board against an UTG open with air. He may call with a wide range but it takes a special kind of maniac to raise with nothing on that board AND even then the kinds of nothing hands that raise we're behind.
 
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I like the person who said they wouldnt be happy stacking with less than 8 clean outs. Even if he is aggro, I think you can find slightly better spots to shove. I'd like the hand better if I held the KQ and the J10 was on the board.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think you have to think about the alternative line he could have taken here.

Lets assume villian raises or cr about 30% overall, so TPGK+ Draws, GS, Sets 2pair. Basically lots of strong things and lots of draws and a few bluffs with air, but the air is always going to be negligible compared to the amount of other stuff he naturally raises here.

Against that range we have to fold down to the near nuts to continue.

The temptation is to think "well he does this a lot so I should be able to exploit it"

His range is strong so you exploit that by folding.

If he also has a calling range, then what exactly is in it? No sets, No 2pair, No TPTK No Draws, No GS.

So we are betting here, planning to fold to a raise but also planning on 3 barrelling if he calls. If we hit, great, if not our last bet will put us all in. We barrell 2 streets with equity and the final street we make a pure bluff due to all of the dead money in the pot.

If this guy is raising so much that its making you want to play back at him knowing that his range is probably still quite strong, then the thing to bear in mind is when he calls he almost has nothing he can call 3 streets of betting with.
 
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