$50 NLHE 6-max: Correct exploitation from SB?

gustav197poker · Dec 17, 2019

Below this development I leave the hand link.
In this hand, We have a deep stack in the small blind. I have observed the characteristics of the villains and in this case, I face UTG. This villain usually plays tall combinations. Style; A-K; A-Q; etc. So that structure, is the one I consider most likely, in its UTG opening range.
Statistical parameters such as VPIP, PFR, AG, etc. I will not publish them, in order to show my personal perception and not interfere with the biased conclusions, which may mean a small sample of hands. In addition, I also intend to preserve the most specific characteristics of the colleagues at my table.
In this hand, I decide to represent an offensive line from preflop and with a structure range similar to that of the villain. So in this sequence, we are both playing with a perception of similar equity.
In preflop UTG opens to 3bb. From SB I decide to do a 3bet at approximately 2.75X. Villain calls and we go to the flop:

Flop: 3h Td 9s Boat: 8.74. 2 players in hand.
I place a continuation bet of approximately 1/4 the size of the pot. Villain calls. At this point, I try to continue with that perception of similar equity, which I believe we have both.
In addition, the texture of the board benefits me against the Jxs, since I have a blocker on the upper side of the straight.
It is likely that my backdoor stair is neutralized by another stronger backdoor, so I only have a partial blocking force, against that range. But now we are representing the same structure of rank v. So I shouldn't worry too much. Therefore I make a small size on the flop.
Villain call and we looking the turn.

Turn: 3h Td 9s 2c Boat: 13.10
I think that both, we will protect our ranks with a check and it was.

River: 3h Td 9s 2c 5h Boat: 13.10

We make a small bet of 30% of the pot. At this point, We look for profitable folds or calls, of closed ranks that did not complete your hand. I think have an advantage from the preflop, against the rank structure I perceive in the villain. But We am also aware that We may be wrong. If I face an increase in this place on the river, I will not hesitate to give up.
I think that in this hand the texture helped me a little, and also the fact of having more information about V. But I would like to know your opinion about the hand in general. Any comments or advice I receive it with my greatest disposition.

I leave the link of this complete hand:
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/5qdM31X

Regards.

Ianmacca99 · Dec 17, 2019

Your line sounds quite spewy given your hand. You won the pot but at no point did you play it well in my opinion

Pre flop raised with a garbage hand if he 4 bet would you have folded?

Flop. You given the indication of strength so cbetting is the only part I like here as you could take it down

Turn. If he has what you thought he had you've given him a chance to catch up. Your line started spewy might as well continue that story.

River. Now your value betting bottom pair. You could say you read it great etc I knew he had AK. How daft do you look if he turns over a pair of 8s or 7s there which he feasibly could do. Which strong hands would you check the turn with on this board? How many 9s or 10s do you have in your range so he could play those type of hands.

Aballinamion · Dec 17, 2019

gustav197poker said:
Below this development I leave the hand link.
In this hand, We have a deep stack in the small blind. I have observed the characteristics of the villains and in this case, I face UTG. This villain usually plays tall combinations. Style; A-K; A-Q; etc. So that structure, is the one I consider most likely, in its UTG opening range.
Statistical parameters such as VPIP, PFR, AG, etc. I will not publish them, in order to show my personal perception and not interfere with the biased conclusions, which may mean a small sample of hands. In addition, I also intend to preserve the most specific characteristics of the colleagues at my table.
In this hand, I decide to represent an offensive line from preflop and with a structure range similar to that of the villain. So in this sequence, we are both playing with a perception of similar equity.
In preflop UTG opens to 3bb. From SB I decide to do a 3bet at approximately 2.75X. Villain calls and we go to the flop:

Flop: 3h Td 9s Boat: 8.74. 2 players in hand.
I place a continuation bet of approximately 1/4 the size of the pot. Villain calls. At this point, I try to continue with that perception of similar equity, which I believe we have both.
In addition, the texture of the board benefits me against the Jxs, since I have a blocker on the upper side of the straight.
It is likely that my backdoor stair is neutralized by another stronger backdoor, so I only have a partial blocking force, against that range. But now we are representing the same structure of rank v. So I shouldn't worry too much. Therefore I make a small size on the flop.
Villain call and we looking the turn.

Turn: 3h Td 9s 2c Boat: 13.10
I think that both, we will protect our ranks with a check and it was.

River: 3h Td 9s 2c 5h Boat: 13.10

We make a small bet of 30% of the pot. At this point, We look for profitable folds or calls, of closed ranks that did not complete your hand. I think have an advantage from the preflop, against the rank structure I perceive in the villain. But We am also aware that We may be wrong. If I face an increase in this place on the river, I will not hesitate to give up.
I think that in this hand the texture helped me a little, and also the fact of having more information about V. But I would like to know your opinion about the hand in general. Any comments or advice I receive it with my greatest disposition.

I leave the link of this complete hand:
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/5qdM31X

Regards.

Hello there gustav197poker, thanks for sharing your hand with us. First, I would like to say that is not my intention to offend you, because I am a low stakes player (2 NLHE to 10 NLHE at maximum), but I hope I can contribute to your game improvement.
First of all, you said that you have no specific readings about the UTG player. Well, if we consider that players are opening 15% hands of UTG, the perceived UTG's Preflop Range will looks like:

22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, AJo+, KQo (15.23%)

But there are some crazy nits who opens from UTG a narrow range:

TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KQo (7.99%). This is most the case of unbalanced players of 2NLHE and 5 NLHE, I don't know how much NIT players tend to open 8% of hands or less from UTG at 50 NLHE.

Second of all, I didn't look the hand you have yet, so I am trying to figure out which hand you as Hero in the SB had at the moment you decided to 3bet UTG's range (when you do that you demonstrate a lot of strength). So I guess your range would be at maximum:

22+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, KJs+, QJs, AQo+ (11%)

I believe it is very okay your move, since you are deep stacked and have readings about the villain in the UTG to play mostly strong A's in his range. So, when you 3bet from SB, if the player is a TAG or a NIT he will narrow his calling range a bit, so I suppose when UTG calls you he has 7%, 5% of best hands depending on how NIT the player is.
I like it because you are deep stack and also playing for implied odds, and because you are the Preflop aggressor you can take advantage of this very close equity spot, as you told.
In a situation like that, it is most likely to UTG to have range advantage upon you when it calls preflop.
But here comes a very important question, because you deep stacked: when you 3bet it you expect more folds to steal the pot or more calls to overplay the UTG's out of position? (because I find very hard to bluff UTG from the SB)

A) The postflop game

Pot size: 17.48 BB
Flop: 3h Td 9s

Very dry board, only the T connects with 9 but nothing to worry about. SB could have plenty of T9s in his range, 33, TT and 99 but, it is a very close spot and UTG also can have those hands and from time to time even QQ+
Now, your 1/4 bet in the flop is very strange. Because you expect UTG to fold to almost anything it hits in a flop texture like that. UTG will be calling with all the overcards such as AK, KQ, because they got a good price in position in a 3bet pot, UTG will be calling with T9s, QJs, KJs, and sometimes even with his sets with TT and 99, because if UTG hit a set and raised you in a spot like that, it is most likely that SB folds.
The general population would be checking a lot this flop out of position or betting 1/3 pot in this 3bet pot, depending, of course, on the equity of your range. (I didn't see your hole cards yet).
When you bet 1/4 Pot out of position in the Flop is it a value bet (you expect worse hands to come in and pay) or is it a bluff (you expect better hands to fold). Because against UTG we haven't many fold equity most of times, specially with a NIT.
But I like your ideia of trying to exploit and extract value for such combos as AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, QT, QJ, KT (not so much because it will be calling here even a higher c-bet price)
When you bet 1/4 pot in the flop it looks like you have a decent hand and does not want a fold. Which means you will have 9x, Tx, and sometimes sets (33, TT and 99) in your range, that expect to be check-raised. (Also AKs, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ) It is also a good ideia, but 1/4 pot versus UTG in a low board like that will make the player continue with a lot of stuff.

B) The turn

Pot size: 26.2 BB
Turn: 3h Td 9s 2c

The Deuce of Club doesn't change the situation at all. But, once you elect to bet 1/4 pot in the Flop, representing AA, KK, QQ, JJ, Tx, 9x and sets, and then you elect to check the Turn it seems that you are opening a way to exploitation. Maybe your perceived range could have some lower and mid pocket pairs such as 88 and under that decided to bet small because of the T in the board.
The player from UTG took a passive line preflop and postflop, so, when it comes a harmless 2c in the Turn, I believe you should fire a double barrel for value or for bluff.
But, forgive me, I don't really know if you are playing GTO or exploitative game. You should have specific reasons for doing that, but it is very strange this line of 1/4 pot C-bet Flop and Check Turn. It is also strange for the player in the UTG. What did he call you preflop that could possibily call a small c-bet flop and check behind Turn in position?
If UTG have Tx it would be betting. If UTG have Two Pair it would be betting for value. UTG has no Pocket 3's by this hour neither Pocket 2's (I hope the general population is not calling a 3bet coming from the SB with the hope of setmining in the flop and never in the river but, I don't know your cards or villain's yet). UTG could be easily try to bluff the SB here with a lot of AK, KQ, etc, because of the line SB decided to take. But UTG decides to check and we see a river:

C) The River

In the river comes a 5 of Hearts. The pot is the same size of the Turn. You said: "We make a small bet of 30% of the pot. At this point, We look for profitable folds or calls, of closed ranks that did not complete your hand. I think have an advantage from the preflop, against the rank structure I perceive in the villain."
If you have information of the villain this bet is fine. If you don't have information it is a very close spot, but when villain calls you he will show almost 100% of times a better hand. But if you have information that Villain could be calling with Ace high, King high, the bet is okay, but I would do a little bit higher for value than for bluff.
And I agree, if you face aggresion in the River versus a NIT player, it is a very easy fold.

My ideias after I saw your hole cards:

OMG! Nice! Now I see your hole cards and you had Q2o? LOL!!!
Now, sorry, but I have to say a few more things: I was considering your 3bet range from SB as 11% of best hands. Q2o is way too much spewy man! If you are 3betting Q2o from SB x UTG (who has the most stronger ranges of all), you are 3betting almost everything! And it will be hard to be profitable in the long run, specially versus UTG who will call down your 3bet always with better Queens and better.
I believe you were expecting a lot of folds preflop, but UTG will not fold preflop, to a small 3bet out of position, and specially when you bet 1/4 pot, giving odds for UTG to continue with all of his Aces, Kings and Queens, and sometimes even Jacks.
A few days ago I posted a hand that I opened a 76o from the BTN and got a 3bet of 4x from a FISH in the BB, and most of players told I was too spewy. And I agree. But I was in position versus a recreational.
You are out of position versus a NIT or a regular I don't know your readings. Tell me what you think and sorry for my exaggeration. Anyways, this a huge preflop bluff.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

c0rnBr34d · Dec 17, 2019

I don't like this one. Similar to the J6o hand but worse. Stealing from the BU has more of a chance of getting through than 3 betting OOP to less than 3x vs UTG open with Q2o. It seems like you're trying to manufacture spots rather than look for opportunities. Q2o is never a 3 bet here. I'm not sure the flop favors either of your ranges. UTG open range doesn't have much Tx or 9x. SB 3 bet range doesn't either. So you're basically saying you have an over pair or AK. Since we didn't get 4 bet we could argue we have more overpairs but that's not much of an advantage. Turn is a super weird spot because now we have some showdown value vs big Aces and KQs (which we have smashed). We don't want to bet and get raised off of our equity but we are capping our range if we check. We are OOP so there's no great option. I guess it depends on how you think your V will respond. River sizing is good for thin value but again we open ourselves up to getting raised. A check could also induce a bet which we could call for perhaps a safer route to the same result. These are spots we shouldn't be in though so trying to decide what's best may not be worth a ton of effort. If you want to play more hands, I'd suggest running more tables at the same time. That way you don't get bored enough to try to 3 bet Q2o vs an UTG range that you know has you beat. You sound like you want to give your V a head start and still try to prove you can win the race with superior play. This is a very slippery slop. Before you know it you will be playing worse than them.

Even with just 2 tables I'm getting around 150 hands per hour so there's never too much time without action. You have been playing short handed more too which allows you to play even more hands.

EvertonGirl · Dec 17, 2019

The only time I like to 3b in the SB is when I am facing a raise from LP and even then I wouldn't be 3bing with Q2o, to be 3bing light in the SB you need blockers with at least a decent kicker!!

gustav197poker · Dec 17, 2019

Aballinamion said:
Hello there gustav197poker, thanks for sharing your hand with us. First, I would like to say that is not my intention to offend you, because I am a low stakes player (2 NLHE to 10 NLHE at maximum), but I hope I can contribute to your game improvement.
First of all, you said that you have no specific readings about the UTG player. Well, if we consider that players are opening 15% hands of UTG, the perceived UTG's Preflop Range will looks like:

22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, AJo+, KQo (15.23%)

But there are some crazy nits who opens from UTG a narrow range:

TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo+, KQo (7.99%). This is most the case of unbalanced players of 2NLHE and 5 NLHE, I don't know how much NIT players tend to open 8% of hands or less from UTG at 50 NLHE.

Second of all, I didn't look the hand you have yet, so I am trying to figure out which hand you as Hero in the SB had at the moment you decided to 3bet UTG's range (when you do that you demonstrate a lot of strength). So I guess your range would be at maximum:

22+, ATs+, A5s-A2s, KJs+, QJs, AQo+ (11%)

I believe it is very okay your move, since you are deep stacked and have readings about the villain in the UTG to play mostly strong A's in his range. So, when you 3bet from SB, if the player is a TAG or a NIT he will narrow his calling range a bit, so I suppose when UTG calls you he has 7%, 5% of best hands depending on how NIT the player is.
I like it because you are deep stack and also playing for implied odds, and because you are the Preflop aggressor you can take advantage of this very close equity spot, as you told.
In a situation like that, it is most likely to UTG to have range advantage upon you when it calls preflop.
But here comes a very important question, because you deep stacked: when you 3bet it you expect more folds to steal the pot or more calls to overplay the UTG's out of position? (because I find very hard to bluff UTG from the SB)

A) The postflop game

Pot size: 17.48 BB
Flop: 3h Td 9s

Very dry board, only the T connects with 9 but nothing to worry about. SB could have plenty of T9s in his range, 33, TT and 99 but, it is a very close spot and UTG also can have those hands and from time to time even QQ+
Now, your 1/4 bet in the flop is very strange. Because you expect UTG to fold to almost anything it hits in a flop texture like that. UTG will be calling with all the overcards such as AK, KQ, because they got a good price in position in a 3bet pot, UTG will be calling with T9s, QJs, KJs, and sometimes even with his sets with TT and 99, because if UTG hit a set and raised you in a spot like that, it is most likely that SB folds.
The general population would be checking a lot this flop out of position or betting 1/3 pot in this 3bet pot, depending, of course, on the equity of your range. (I didn't see your hole cards yet).
When you bet 1/4 Pot out of position in the Flop is it a value bet (you expect worse hands to come in and pay) or is it a bluff (you expect better hands to fold). Because against UTG we haven't many fold equity most of times, specially with a NIT.
But I like your ideia of trying to exploit and extract value for such combos as AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, QT, QJ, KT (not so much because it will be calling here even a higher c-bet price)
When you bet 1/4 pot in the flop it looks like you have a decent hand and does not want a fold. Which means you will have 9x, Tx, and sometimes sets (33, TT and 99) in your range, that expect to be check-raised. (Also AKs, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ) It is also a good ideia, but 1/4 pot versus UTG in a low board like that will make the player continue with a lot of stuff.

B) The turn

Pot size: 26.2 BB
Turn: 3h Td 9s 2c

The Deuce of Club doesn't change the situation at all. But, once you elect to bet 1/4 pot in the Flop, representing AA, KK, QQ, JJ, Tx, 9x and sets, and then you elect to check the Turn it seems that you are opening a way to exploitation. Maybe your perceived range could have some lower and mid pocket pairs such as 88 and under that decided to bet small because of the T in the board.
The player from UTG took a passive line preflop and postflop, so, when it comes a harmless 2c in the Turn, I believe you should fire a double barrel for value or for bluff.
But, forgive me, I don't really know if you are playing GTO or exploitative game. You should have specific reasons for doing that, but it is very strange this line of 1/4 pot C-bet Flop and Check Turn. It is also strange for the player in the UTG. What did he call you preflop that could possibily call a small c-bet flop and check behind Turn in position?
If UTG have Tx it would be betting. If UTG have Two Pair it would be betting for value. UTG has no Pocket 3's by this hour neither Pocket 2's (I hope the general population is not calling a 3bet coming from the SB with the hope of setmining in the flop and never in the river but, I don't know your cards or villain's yet). UTG could be easily try to bluff the SB here with a lot of AK, KQ, etc, because of the line SB decided to take. But UTG decides to check and we see a river:

C) The River

In the river comes a 5 of Hearts. The pot is the same size of the Turn. You said: "We make a small bet of 30% of the pot. At this point, We look for profitable folds or calls, of closed ranks that did not complete your hand. I think have an advantage from the preflop, against the rank structure I perceive in the villain."
If you have information of the villain this bet is fine. If you don't have information it is a very close spot, but when villain calls you he will show almost 100% of times a better hand. But if you have information that Villain could be calling with Ace high, King high, the bet is okay, but I would do a little bit higher for value than for bluff.
And I agree, if you face aggresion in the River versus a NIT player, it is a very easy fold.

My ideias after I saw your hole cards:

OMG! Nice! Now I see your hole cards and you had Q2o? LOL!!!
Now, sorry, but I have to say a few more things: I was considering your 3bet range from SB as 11% of best hands. Q2o is way too much spewy man! If you are 3betting Q2o from SB x UTG (who has the most stronger ranges of all), you are 3betting almost everything! And it will be hard to be profitable in the long run, specially versus UTG who will call down your 3bet always with better Queens and better.
I believe you were expecting a lot of folds preflop, but UTG will not fold preflop, to a small 3bet out of position, and specially when you bet 1/4 pot, giving odds for UTG to continue with all of his Aces, Kings and Queens, and sometimes even Jacks.
A few days ago I posted a hand that I opened a 76o from the BTN and got a 3bet of 4x from a FISH in the BB, and most of players told I was too spewy. And I agree. But I was in position versus a recreational.
You are out of position versus a NIT or a regular I don't know your readings. Tell me what you think and sorry for my exaggeration. Anyways, this a huge preflop bluff.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Thank you for your extensive responses. They are very generous and enriching. And don't worry that I also played and play nl2 sometimes.
As for the preflop, I did 3-bet because I wanted to neutralize the entire high structure of the V range, which I considered likely from utg.
Objective 1 was the fold of the villain in preflop, if I did not succeed, my plan b was to convert rank v into a defense structure, calling my increase.
I have sincerely played a very weak hand, but my goal was to represent a closed range, which surely did not block the strong structure, which I thought the villain had. (But he wanted the villain to think, that he had strength in preflop, and wanted to induce a call of high combinations with no completed value, acting as lantern catchers, formed by equally high combinations, and with no completed value.
That is, my goal in the flop was not to look for a quick fold. What I wanted to do in that flop, is to maintain the balance, in the scope that I represent and at the same time, to protect myself from the attacks, setting an economic price of bet c. Obviously if the villain increased me, I was closer to giving up on this place. But anyway, when I represent strong ranges, which can block high combinations of the villain, I look for small values, where I can obtain minimal advantages, in dry textures. And from them, I try to separate my representation and take advantage of the lower part of my range, which is completely unlocked, most of the time.
Obviously this is not a standard approach. No one would recommend a 3-bet line with Q-2off. In this particular case I did a check on the turn, because I wanted to verify the thought I had, given the current circumstances.
In this case I did not include the 9s or the Ts in the respective ranges.
And on the river, I already had my plan b mounted (I repeat, it's not at standard)
These types of unorthodox movements are rarely successful. In this particular case, I found an advantage in the texture of the board, I was with a deep stack and I was able to approximate the rank v, to the hand that I thought I had and that it really was her.
Regards Carlos.

0815am · Dec 18, 2019

Hey,

I disagree with any action taken.

If you 3B Q2 from the SB, you are basically 3B a hand out of the bottom 20%
If you do that, you do that to 1) take down the pot preflop or on the flop. Because you will have the worst hand 90%+ of the time. Therefore I would bet bigger if I were to 3B. I would also CB a little more. But basically you will be spewing off chips with no equity.
When you bet so small on flop, I would just give up on the turn and check down the hand.

It is also not clear if you think river is a value bet or whether you are betting to fold out a better hand.

EvertonGirl · Dec 18, 2019

Forgot to mention that suited blockers are better for 3bing light in the SB

TPC · Dec 18, 2019

A raise from UTG usually means someone is on the upper portion of their range. You are three betting from the absolute bottom range and then are forced to play the had out of position if villain decides to call. You were just lucky villain is so passive.

xrhstos · Dec 18, 2019

I think the only mistake in this hand was the preflop 3-bet with that hand.
If you are 3-betting with Q2o you are increasing your 3-betting range to a point that a villain can start 4-betting you profitably with bluffs.
So you are mostly giving room for exploitation rather than exploiting here.
And in this hand villain gave you too much credit and decided to flat your 3-bet instead of what normally will be a 4-bet with AK.
The play would be fine if you are only 3-betting bluff with K2o,Q2o and balance your value range with bluffs, but I assume you 3-bet bluff too much there.
Also I personally don't mind the flop bet sizing, but there is a consideration for a bigger bet since our equity is ahead of villain's.

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$50 NLHE 6-max: Correct exploitation from SB?

gustav197poker

Legend

Ianmacca99

Rock Star

Aballinamion

Sleeping with the Dark Lady of the Sith

c0rnBr34d

Visionary

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

gustav197poker

Legend

0815am

Rock Star

EvertonGirl

Professional Fish

TPC

Legend

xrhstos

Rock Star

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