$50 NLHE 6-max: Cold Call of 3 bet places hero in weird spot postflop.

fighter · Nov 3, 2009

$50 NL HE 6-max: Cold Call of 3 bet places hero in weird spot postflop.

This was a weird spot. I had no idea where I was really at.

Following stats in (VP$IP/PFR/AF)
BTN was (27/22/1.7) with 33% steal and 38% fold to 3 bet (8 combos ) over 187 hands. He seems to be 2+2 ish but much more passive value betting.

BB was 26/16/3.0 over 137 hands. He is worse then his stats suggest but not by that much. Not seen him 4 bet yet.

My stats are probably around 22/19/3.3 with 6.3 % 3bet

As soon as the cold call happened I was pretty lost. I was not happy with how I played it but am unsure what line is actually best.

poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 351979
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

UTG: $24.55
MP: $80.70
CO: $29.25
BTN: $70.00
Hero (SB): $52.15
BB: $58.15

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with T :heart: A :diamond:
3 folds, BTN raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $6, BB calls $5.50, BTN calls $4.50

Flop: ($18.00) Q :heart: A :heart: 5 :diamond: (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($18.00) J :heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

River: ($18.00) 6 :club: (3 players)
Hero bets $12, BB folds, BTN raises to $30.50, Hero ??

What is the prefered line and what is your action as played.

IveGot0uts · Nov 3, 2009

Eep

As played I weep openly and fold. I think my action there is to Cbet the flop something like 1/3-1/2 pot to look like I'm begging to be called with the plan of giving up to any scary answers. I think at this point your hand is mostly a semi-bluffer with some back door draw opportunities. 2 people sticking is scary as hell, but they know this, so your weak cbet will probably gain a substantial amount of respect, assuming they're not donktards. They'll probably let you know right where you stand on that flop.

Zybomb · Nov 3, 2009

Youve played pot control on the flop and turn, I just dont see the point of betting the river. What better hands are you trying to fold out that will fold? What worse hands are you gaining value from that will call? Check the river.

As played I really have no idea what button has given his strange line of checking last to act on the flop and turn and then raising an ultra blank river. I dunno what we beat, but his line seems so bluffy (66 maybe?) that Im tempted to look him up. Hence why I avoid the spot and just check the river

GeorgeCostanza · Nov 3, 2009

Reraise with A 10 and not putting out a bet after you hit your ace? I don't get it, why would you reraise with A10 in the first place.

It would make a whole lot of sense if the guy had K10 as we would have bet a flush draw or a pair on the board most likely.

Your play confused me there bro

kadafi · Nov 3, 2009

Zybomb said:
Youve played pot control on the flop and turn, I just dont see the point of betting the river. What better hands are you trying to fold out that will fold? What worse hands are you gaining value from that will call? Check the river.

As played I really have no idea what button has given his strange line of checking last to act on the flop and turn and then raising an ultra blank river. I dunno what we beat, but his line seems so bluffy (66 maybe?) that Im tempted to look him up. Hence why I avoid the spot and just check the river

Yep. Betting that river is horrible imo when you've already checked two streets. The only hands that will call you are hands that have you beat and hands that have you beat arent going to fold.

Pointless bet. A better line would of been check/call or check/fold if he shoved all in. But I don't like the reraise preflop and flop check to begin with.

c9h13no3 · Nov 3, 2009

kadafi said:
Yep. Betting that river is horrible imo when you've already checked two streets. The only hands that will call you are hands that have you beat and hands that have you beat arent going to fold.

Um, are you guys seriously smokin' the ganja weed? I really think we get looked up by every pair in the book, and that's precisely why we bet the river. And I call the river, because I can't really think of a hand other than 66 that he's repping.

I'd bet the turn myself, but your real mistake in the hand was that you should've folded preflop.

jmasterrich · Nov 3, 2009

c9h13no3 said:
I'd bet the turn myself, but your real mistake in the hand was that you should've folded preflop.

+1.
I think 3betting OOP with this kind of hand is always always always gonna get you into trouble. As you can see even when you flop that ace you still have no idea where you are at. I might make this resteal in a tourney with blinds an antes but in cash game this is like almost always a fold.

bgomez89 · Nov 3, 2009

jmasterrich said:
+1.
I think 3betting OOP with this kind of hand is always always always gonna get you into trouble. As you can see even when you flop that ace you still have no idea where you are at. I might make this resteal in a tourney with blinds an antes but in cash game this is like almost always a fold.

with a 38% blind steal i think 3betting the BTN with AT is a pretty good move.

S93 · Nov 3, 2009

bgomez89 said:
with a 38% blind steal i think 3betting the BTN with AT is a pretty good move.

I rather 3bet 76s,22,T6o ect here then.
Problem is when we 3bet AT we set us selfs up for some nasty reverse implied odds spots.

c9h13no3 · Nov 3, 2009

bgomez89 said:
with a 38% blind steal i think 3betting the BTN with AT is a pretty good move.

Have you considered his 38% fold to 3-bet?

Now, lets do a simple poker stove exercise. If he steals 33%, and he folds 38% of that range to a 3-bet, that leaves him with a range of rougly 20% of hands (in reality, its probably less than that).

Hand 0: 49.565% { ATo }
Hand 1: 50.435% { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+ }

So as you can see, ATo is a (slight) dog to his calling range, and his calling range is probably narrower than that! Also, ATo flops very poorly. We can flop gutshots, top pair top kicker that is usually crushed by overpairs, or a dominated ace. Not much else. And last but not least we'll be playing in a big pot out of position against a peely opponent.

Just to re-iterate why 3-betting is a horrible idea:

1) Villain does not fold enough to 3-bets to make our 3-bet immediately profitable.
2) We're an underdog to villain's calling range.
3) We're going to be out of position with a hand that flops poorly.

So unless you have anything to add to that, I think our options with this hand should be calling (which I don't really like) or folding.

Deco · Nov 3, 2009

I wrote a really good quality post I was rather proud off.
Then I realized sindri and c9 had got to this thread before me.

+1 on what they've said. Especially the preflop stuff.Your dodgy 3bet has landed you in this position.

fighter · Nov 3, 2009

sindri_93 said:
I rather 3bet 76s,22,T6o ect here then.
Problem is when we 3bet AT we set us selfs up for some nasty reverse implied odds spots.

Why would you 3 bet T6o and not AT. Surely the "I can just play it like a bluff" logic can be applied to the AT. Only with AT you have the Ace blocker.

c9h13no3 said:
Have you considered his 38% fold to 3-bet?

Now, lets do a simple poker stove exercise. If he steals 33%, and he folds 38% of that range to a 3-bet, that leaves him with a range of rougly 20% of hands (in reality, its probably less than that).

Hand 0: 49.565% { ATo }
Hand 1: 50.435% { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+ }

So as you can see, ATo is a (slight) dog to his calling range, and his calling range is probably narrower than that! Also, ATo flops very poorly. We can flop gutshots, top pair top kicker that is usually crushed by overpairs, or a dominated ace. Not much else. And last but not least we'll be playing in a big pot out of position against a peely opponent.

Just to re-iterate why 3-betting is a horrible idea:

1) Villain does not fold enough to 3-bets to make our 3-bet immediately profitable.
2) We're an underdog to villain's calling range.
3) We're going to be out of position with a hand that flops poorly.

So unless you have anything to add to that, I think our options with this hand should be calling (which I don't really like) or folding.

well yeah against that range life sucks.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,068,434,304 games 0.001 secs 4,068,434,304,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.656% 43.15% 03.50% 1755692352 142474920.00 { JJ-22, AQs-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 53.344% 49.84% 03.50% 2027792112 142474920.00 { ATo }

If you take away the hands he 4 bets we are ahead when he calls. Also considering the read that he is passive and I think this is extremely profitable.

If it was just him I would be fine with the post flop. It is only because of the cold call that I am unsure where I was at. Avoiding this situation because BB might cold call or cold 4 bet is a mistake imo.

bgomez89 · Nov 3, 2009

c9h13no3 said:
Have you considered his 38% fold to 3-bet?

Now, lets do a simple poker stove exercise. If he steals 33%, and he folds 38% of that range to a 3-bet, that leaves him with a range of rougly 20% of hands (in reality, its probably less than that).

Thanks for the insight. How did you get the 20% though(just so i can do the math myself when im playing)

c9h13no3 · Nov 3, 2009

bgomez89 said:
Thanks for the insight. How did you get the 20% though(just so i can do the math myself when im playing)

Its really just a crude approximation. Steals 0.33 then calls with 0.62 of that. 0.33*0.62 = ~0.2

So I just went into poker stove and found a range he might call with that would get me to 20%. Some of the KTo, QTo stuff he probably folds, but nowhere near enough to get us to a profitable 3-bet bluff (we need ~65% folds preflop to be immediately profitable). Of course, it doesn't have to be 65% since we can c-bet and they'll fold some too. And yeah, he'll 4-bet some hands so the range gets a little weaker. But not enough to make me happy about this preflop 3-bet.

However, ATo just sets us up to make so many mistakes postflop, and being OOP doesn't help either. I'm really surprised the OP can use the words "extremely profitable" with a straight face to describe his 3-bet. And I'm all about 3-betting (I was up around 16% at one point in my career), but this is just not a great spot to do it.

fighter · Nov 4, 2009

c9h13no3 said:
Its really just a crude approximation. Steals 0.33 then calls with 0.62 of that. 0.33*0.62 = ~0.2

So I just went into poker stove and found a range he might call with that would get me to 20%. Some of the KTo, QTo stuff he probably folds, but nowhere near enough to get us to a profitable 3-bet bluff (we need ~65% folds preflop to be immediately profitable). Of course, it doesn't have to be 65% since we can c-bet and they'll fold some too. And yeah, he'll 4-bet some hands so the range gets a little weaker. But not enough to make me happy about this preflop 3-bet.

However, ATo just sets us up to make so many mistakes postflop, and being OOP doesn't help either. I'm really surprised the OP can use the words "extremely profitable" with a straight face to describe his 3-bet. And I'm all about 3-betting (I was up around 16% at one point in my career), but this is just not a great spot to do it.

Agree Extremely profitable is a stretch but I think you reading way too much into a stat that only happened 8 times.

BelgoSuisse · Nov 4, 2009

I actually like calling preflop. That way we keep all the hands that can make TP worse kicker than ours in the hand. Also, there are tons of Axx board where villain will cbet 100% of his range which we crush on that board, so our implied odds are pretty good.

You should 3bet hands that are either too good or just not good enough to call with. ATo is not one of them.

S93 · Nov 4, 2009

fighter said:
Why would you 3 bet T6o and not AT. Surely the "I can just play it like a bluff" logic can be applied to the AT. Only with AT you have the Ace blocker.

Sure u can play it like a bluff but my point was with hands like 76s we are bluffing aswell but we can actualy hit flops we like and wont get into trouble whem we flop one pair type hands and face aggression, about the only flop u like in this spot is ATx and JQK.
Any other flop and where in trouble.
Having ace blockers helps but not alot seeing as when he does call our 3bet with an ace he almost allways has us dominated.

I just dont want to 3bet and beeing forced to play a big pot with a hand that is usualy dominated OOP, i rather save my self the heartach and fold or flat and keep in his junk hands and play a smaller pot, epecialy if BB isnt prown to squezing.

Deco · Nov 4, 2009

fighter said:
Originally Posted by fighter
Why would you 3 bet T6o and not AT. Surely the "I can just play it like a bluff" logic can be applied to the AT. Only with AT you have the Ace blocker.

Good question. The point is when were in a good situation to 3bet bluff for fold equity ATC will do. If you don't mind tricky spots go ahead and 3bet your AT as a bluff.

Personally this is a marginal steal at best. This guy has called 5 out of 8 3bets. Chances are we aren't teeming with fold equity. Add to this the fact he's a 50NL LAG. 50NL LAGs are notorious for calling 3bets BTNvsBlind with next to anything.

Are fold equity is shit. I fold my air here as well as AT. When 3bet bluffing with AT I would suggest applying that little bit extra caution and avoiding marginal spots with it.
If this guy was a 19/17 the same steal and a 84% F3B go ahead. When we are utterly unsure of what is within his range get rid of it.

$50 NLHE 6-max: Cold Call of 3 bet places hero in weird spot postflop.

fighter

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IveGot0uts

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Zybomb

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GeorgeCostanza

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kadafi

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

jmasterrich

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bgomez89

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S93

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

Deco

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fighter

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bgomez89

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

fighter

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BelgoSuisse

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S93

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Deco

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