$50 NLHE 6-max: AKs 4bet just called, cbet or give up?

$50 NL HE 6-max: AKs 4bet just called, cbet or give up?

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 20/17/3

Villain is running at 20/17/3 over ~100 hands this is the first time he has 3 bet in 31 chances. I don't remember seeing do anything out of line so far, so should I cbet this or just be giving up unless he checks behind and I hit one of my cards?

poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (CO): $69.00
BTN: $78.00
SB: $34.80
BB: $24.55
UTG: $56.30

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is CO with A:diamond: K:diamond:
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $6, 2 folds, Hero raises to $16, BTN calls $10

Flop: ($32.75) J:club: 4:diamond: 6:heart: (2 players)
Hero ?

I would just ch/fold. Against most players 4 bet calling range, I dont think your going to have much fold equity if any. Even if he has the same hand you do AK, he may even jam over your cbet with the overs.

Richyl2008 said:

I would just ch/fold. Against most players 4 bet calling range, I dont think your going to have much fold equity if any. Even if he has the same hand you do AK, he may even jam over your cbet with the overs.

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pretty much this

I jam this flop all day with 100 BB stacks. Even if he's calling 100% and your overs are outs you only need 3:1 and you're getting 2:1. Little bit trickier deep, but I still think either way it's going to be marginal. You only need a fold once in a while though to make it profitable, and I like jamming here just because I hate people who flat my 4-bets lol. Folding is probably slightly more profitable though so in this case deep I guess as much as it sucks a ch/f would probably be more profitable.

That said, when you're a bit deep here I like making 4-bets a bit bigger, so it's about a pot bet to get it in, especially with a hand like AK. And then after you do that if he still flats you I definitely shove.

zachvac said:

I jam this flop all day with 100 BB stacks. Even if he's calling 100% and your overs are outs you only need 3:1 and you're getting 2:1. Little bit trickier deep, but I still think either way it's going to be marginal. You only need a fold once in a while though to make it profitable, and I like jamming here just because I hate people who flat my 4-bets lol. Folding is probably slightly more profitable though so in this case deep I guess as much as it sucks a ch/f would probably be more profitable.

That said, when you're a bit deep here I like making 4-bets a bit bigger, so it's about a pot bet to get it in, especially with a hand like AK. And then after you do that if he still flats you I definitely shove.

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Like he said.
Didn't understand your question, in that I felt an automatic shove or Cbet here. Was this a trick question?

So I have two people saying check fold, and two saying a shove is probably a good idea. I have to say shoving never really crossed my mind, anyone else have an opinion?

Sorry to hi-jack the thread but AK in 6max has been making me ask a few questions of my play lately.

Is AK 6max 100bb's deep a standard shove 3bet/call an all in pre-flop hand??? In cash games if you have say 51% equity then it's not -ev to get it in preflop over 1000 hands b/c you'd have that 1% edge right?? I just see a lot of all in's preflop called by AK (i do play at 10nl atm) and it's not a call i'd generally make, unless the villains super spewy, but its starting to make me wonder if i'm playing too nitty and the people making the calls/pushes with AK are doing the right thing while i'm losing oppurtunities.

I ask this b/c in this hand my action would be to possibly flat call the 3bet and then c/f on a flop like this, i don't like 4betting a pretty standard player oop with AK, purely b/c i'm garbage oop in general but even worse when i dont hit the flop against half decent villains, against a spewy fish i would play the hand the way you played it here but against what looks like a pretty kosher villain i dunno.

I'm relatively new to 6max cash games so apologies if those are total noob comments and questions

I don't like shoving this 100bbs deep and i think it is horrible 140bbs deep. What is the point of shoving if you can't get called by worse and villain won't fold better? By shoving this board the only thing you will fold is worse hands (of which there are probably none in villain's range). The only advantage i could think of is that you probably fold out a chop. Another thing to consider is that one probably wouldn't shove this flop with QQ+ so it is pretty hard to balance, but i'm not sure this matters in 50nl. Additionally, a 20/17 w/a small 3B% is not somebody you really want to be doing this vs since his 4B flatting range is very strong.

If villain's range is strong (ie. there are no small pps in villains range that could get spooked on this flop or lots of broadways which missed) you can't get called by worse and you can't fold out better, so i fail to see how we will get enough folds to make shoving profitable.

feitr said:

Another thing to consider is that one probably wouldn't shove this flop with QQ+ so it is pretty hard to balance, but i'm not sure this matters in 50nl.

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I don't think balance is important against anyone flatting 4-bets.

If you were in villains spot and there is no 3betting or 4betting history, what hands would you be flatting a 4bet in position, with these stacks.

I'm not assuming villain thinks like you, although his stats seem at least somewhat competent from the few hands we have on him. I just find it hard to believe that he's going to show up with the bottom part of his range after you make your first 4bet.

After your 4bet, are you doing this with the intent to call a shove preflop (140bb deep), or are you folding?

Richyl2008 said:

If you were in villains spot and there is no 3betting or 4betting history, what hands would you be flatting a 4bet in position, with these stacks.

I'm not assuming villain thinks like you, although his stats seem at least somewhat competent from the few hands we have on him. I just find it hard to believe that he's going to show up with the bottom part of his range after you make your first 4bet.

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Well generally competent players don't flat 4-bets...

Richyl2008 said:

After your 4bet, are you doing this with the intent to call a shove preflop (140bb deep), or are you folding?

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If so then this is a bad 4-bet. We really should never be 4-betting AK with the intention of folding to a 5-bet shove unless we are super-deep, and I don't think 140 BBs qualifies as super-deep.

zachvac said:

Well generally competent players don't flat 4-bets...

Some will when they are trapping or to get extra bets out of hands that cant continue to a shove/5bet, ie: to keep in weaker hands.

If so then this is a bad 4-bet. We really should never be 4-betting AK with the intention of folding to a 5-bet shove unless we are super-deep, and I don't think 140 BBs qualifies as super-deep.

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I agree, just wanted to point out that he's committing himself to call a shove by 4betting, but when the money goes in its almost always going to be a flip at best. Anyone think flatting here is better then 4betting and committing in this specific example? Since we're soooted we may be able to get some decent equity and make moves on some flops.

Richyl2008 said:

Some will when they are trapping or to get extra bets out of hands that cant continue to a shove/5bet, ie: to keep in weaker hands.

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But how do they balance this? I mean I guess us assuming they must be bad thus range must be weaker kinda makes their play right with monsters, but like think about it. Generally players who 4-bet are doing it with hands they will stack and hands that are garbage. Rarely do players (again, competent ones) 4-bet a hand like AJ and then fold to a shove. Generally I think flatting just allows the trash hands like 56s to catch up.

Richyl2008 said:

I agree, just wanted to point out that he's committing himself to call a shove by 4betting, but when the money goes in its almost always going to be a flip at best. Anyone think flatting here is better then 4betting and committing in this specific example? Since we're soooted we may be able to get some decent equity and make moves on some flops.

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I agree flatting may possibly be ok but we're oop and have AK. I don't like doing anything but raising preflop at every opportunity with AK against anyone who's not a total nit. If they are a nit I would actually consider folding to the 3-bet unless we think his 3-bet range has a lot of AQ/AJ-type hands in it.

But yeah, in this particular hand I still think that shoving vs. ch/folding are pretty similar ev-wise just that I hate letting people have a chance to bluff me in a 4-bet pot and still think we have FE against a lower pair, like 77-TT, which probably makes up a decent amount of a donk's 4-bet calling range.

zachvac said:

But how do they balance this? I mean I guess us assuming they must be bad thus range must be weaker kinda makes their play right with monsters, but like think about it. Generally players who 4-bet are doing it with hands they will stack and hands that are garbage. Rarely do players (again, competent ones) 4-bet a hand like AJ and then fold to a shove. Generally I think flatting just allows the trash hands like 56s to catch up.
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I'm not sure it is about balance as much as exploiting a specific tendancy. Like against someone who cbets 100% of flops after 4betting preflop with his entire range, to get an extra 30-40bbs from air and such.

I suppose there isnt enough hands or history on this villain to make any assumptions though about his play, so I would usually just be pretty straightforward for the most part.

post flop i have to ask ,, what do u think you have beat? with villians history its obvious he has a hand. i think shoving the flop is -Ev, yes, AK is a strong hand but all you have is a draw still. i would check/fold this hand. mabbe im too nitty but i cant see what we have beat here.

make ur 4bet bigger preflop?

vanquish said:

make ur 4bet bigger preflop?

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Yeah I should have since we were deep, but that's a good size if we're just at 100BB stacks right?

I think the rule is you don't want more than ~%30 of your stack in with a 4bet bluff or else you're committed. At 50nl that means ~15, so you could actually make it smaller. Another way of looking at it is that a 3bet is often ~$6 at 50nl, and 2.5x that is $15.

With these stacks $18 looks good.

As played you really have to have a read on flops like these. Mostly players are flatting 4bets with mid pairs and are never folding a flop like this. Others will flat AQ, smaller pairs or even other random shit like A6s/JTs/78s/KQo etc.

Stats don't tell you how players act in 4bet pots so you have to get a read. I just don't think you're getting a fold %60 of the time. I know we have equity when called (and so that % goes down), but just am not sure it's enough still.

To me, flatting the 4bet is telling me he is strong. JJ,QQ, maybe even flatting KK. Noway he folds to a shove here.

I think check/fold is good here, too mut risk man. He is a tight player, than he could have an over pair, or even got a set and will not let you see the turn and river cheap...

Check/Fold in that situation every time. Not worth the risk in the long run.

So it looks like the consensus is pretty much to check/fold and that a shove could work but it's probably not going to get enough folds. Turns out he had pocket 10s and we checked it all the way down, so maybe a shove would have worked, but then again maybe not. But it's somewhat laughable he would call a 4bet with 10s.

SeanyJ said:

But it's somewhat laughable he would call a 4bet with 10s.

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Well, if you don't cbet AK and he folds to aggression when he makes no set, flatting with TT is probably +EV.

Let's assume you 4bet AK, QQ+.

Against AK (16 combos), you go check/check when you don't hit, and he folds when you hit. So a bit less than half the time he loses $10 to call the 4bet, and a bit more than half the time he wins $23. And it's much better yet for him when you hit TP but he hits a set. So it's very profitable against that part of your range.

Against QQ+ (18 combos), he loses $10 when he does not hit set but wins your stack + the dead money, i.e. $75 when he hits. That's nearly enough to set mine. Not quite enough, but not hugely -EV.

Overall, i think it's a +EV call against you.

Ya but you have no idea where you stand if the flop has any overcards, assuming your opponent bluffs some portion of the time.

Looking in a vacuum it might look ok, but really, flatting TT to a 4bet with 100bbs is horrible. That said, tons of players just can't let go of those hands, and you'll often see similar pairs which is why I advocate just giving up.

ChuckTs said:

Ya but you have no idea where you stand if the flop has any overcards, assuming your opponent bluffs some portion of the time.

Looking in a vacuum it might look ok, but really, flatting TT to a 4bet with 100bbs is horrible. That said, tons of players just can't let go of those hands, and you'll often see similar pairs which is why I advocate just giving up.

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All I'm saying is that we're 140bb deep and hero plays fit or fold on flop. The combination of the two makes villain's call ok, imo. 100bb deep or against a hero who cbets, i agree villain's call is baaaad.