$50 NLHE 6-max: AKo, Flop line +200bb's deep in 4bet pot.

Jagsti

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$50 NL HE 6-max: AKo, Flop line +200bb's deep in 4bet pot.

Villain is a reg, seems decent, stats are 24/19/2, 3bet 10%, folds to 3bet 60% and folds to 4bet 50%, smallish sample though!

were over 200bb's deep, so what is the best line here on the flop,

Check and get it to the river cheap, bet/fold, push, bet/call?

Full Tilt, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: $159.30 (318.6 bb)
BB: $126.70 (253.4 bb)
MP: $46.50 (93 bb)
CO: $53 (106 bb)
Hero (BTN): $114.20 (228.4 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A
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K
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2 folds, Hero raises to $1.75, SB folds, BB raises to $6, Hero raises to $18.25, BB calls $12.25

Flop: ($36.75) J
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A
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9
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(2 players)
BB checks, Hero?
 
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B

bw07507

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I dont really like 4betting AK this deep cuz I'm not happy playing it for stacks. I prefer to flat the 3bet. As played, I prob check this flop behind for pot control and then call turn and river if he bets or bet turn and river if he checks to u.
 
vanquish

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I dont really like 4betting AK this deep cuz I'm not happy playing it for stacks. I prefer to flat the 3bet. As played, I prob check this flop behind for pot control and then call turn and river if he bets or bet turn and river if he checks to u.

i agree with this pretty much
 
Jagsti

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Yeah like obviously I meant 4bet pot. I wish I would concentrate when starting these soddin HH's lol!

Also he 3bets out of the BB more than any other postion.
 
Tygran

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I like checking it through to induce a turn bet with worse and to control pot also...

i expect you are ahead here mostly too
 
c9h13no3

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How are you ever considering folding? And given villain's 3-bet stats, I like 4-bet/folding in this spot as well.

I bet like $20, because I like my hand and people hate folding when they've shipped in a huge chunk of their stack. I don't think we're ever inducing a turn bet either because villain either has an ace & will call a flop bet for sure, or he has an underpair which will almost always check the turn as well.
 
tenbob

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Meh, 4betting and folding to a shove is perfect here imo. I don't like a p/f fold.

Considering stacksizes and p/f action I play this exactly like a wa/wb hand, even thought its not "cool" anymore. I don't really consider putting in less than 10% of my stack a "huge chunk" either, and dependant on villians turn and river aggression he just might be able to have a stab with an underpair.
 
c9h13no3

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I don't really consider putting in less than 10% of my stack a "huge chunk" either
If by less than 10%, you mean 16% of effective stacks, then yes, less than 10%.... SPR is 2.6:1 here and we have TPTK, how is this WA/WB? Doesn't WA/WB imply that we have a medium strength hand? On this board the only thing I'm skert of is JJ. All these people saying pot control are tilting me.
 
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cardplayer52

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If by less than 10%, you mean 16% of effective stacks, then yes, less than 10%.... SPR is 2.6:1 here and we have TPTK, how is this WA/WB? Doesn't WA/WB imply that we have a medium strength hand? On this board the only thing I'm skert of is JJ. All these people saying pot control are tilting me.

this hand beats most likely hands in the villians range. eg KK-QQ AQ,AT all of these hands AK is way ahead(WA) of. the hands that got AK beat here AA,JJ,99,+AJ big slick would be way behind. so yes i think this is one of those WA/WB spots.
 
c9h13no3

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this hand beats most likely hands in the villians range. eg KK-QQ AQ,AT all of these hands AK is way ahead(WA) of. the hands that got AK beat here AA,JJ,99,+AJ big slick would be way behind. so yes i think this is one of those WA/WB spots.
Yes, but his range probably doesn't contain AJ, or 99. And there's only 1 combination of AA, and we're just paying him off.

You could say 22 on a 27Q flop is a WA/WB spot, because we're WA of AQ/AA/KK, but we're crushed by 77/QQ. However, thats not the only criteria for WA/WB. The concept of WA/WB should only be applied when we want to keep the pot small, because we have a medium strength hand we don't want to stack off with. In this case, being a 4-bet pot with an SPR of 2.6, TPTK on an AJ9 flop is not a medium strength hand.

Imo, the question isn't wether to stack off, its how to get the money in. We want value from his underpairs, and given my image, I'd almost always just gay-bet the flop, and then shove the turn and let him make a hero call. If villain is kinda stabby/bluffy, then I'd check back the flop & turn, and then just shove most rivers. But there are some turn & river cards that can hurt our action (Q anyone?). But I'm certainly not going to use the word "pot control" when I describe this situation.
 
Jagsti

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Do we really think a TAG is gonna call a 4bet oop with anything less than KK+?

Admittedly, we're deep, but if I was in his shoes I don't think I'm gonna flat in his position with anything less. Does he ever flat the 4bet with some weird SC stuff?
 
c9h13no3

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Do we really think a TAG is gonna call a 4bet oop with anything less than KK+?

Admittedly, we're deep, but if I was in his shoes I don't think I'm gonna flat in his position with anything less. Does he ever flat the 4bet with some weird SC stuff?
This depends so much on the dynamic between you two. I've had TAGs flat my 4-bets with AQs before just because I've been 3/4-betting the crap out of them. So if you've been pounding on him, or there's some history, then I'd say his range includes AQ/AK/JJ. But yeah, I'd say this is pretty much AA/KK/QQ/AKs.
 
ChuckTs

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oh yeah for sure there are worse hands in his range. Not that he's 'always' calling with 99, but I see people call all types of random shit preflop. Then again I also 4bet a lot more than most people, so his range could look tighter here.

Cbetting gets peeled by all Jx/Ax/KK/QQ hands and of course hands that beat us. I bet, probably check back turn to represent a 4bet bluff + cbet that's giving up, then calling river or just value betting it when checked to.
 
Jagsti

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OK, so if we establish his range may be QQ+ and AQ+, and lets throw in for good measure JJ what is the plan for our hand now.

FWIW, I actually bet 2/3rds pot here..... I'm not entirely sure why I did if we think his range is the above, b/c we only get calls or shoves from better and we certainly fold out stuff we beat. The only thing he may call or spazz out with is AQ, which I just can't see tbh.

If we bet here, then there's no turning back to a shove, amirite?
 
ChuckTs

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If you assume that's his range then flop should be a bet/fold. QQ-KK, AQ will peel, and JJ/AA will c/r. KK-QQ/AQ aren't just going to spazz and check-raise, they're going to peel and hope you slow down. And there are a boatload more combos of that hand subset than the sets subset.

But I think his range is wider than that, and I'm not sure we fold to a ch-r since he'll sometimes just spazz out with 9Ts or AT or something.
 
Suited Frenzy

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If he only flats your 4-bet & on top of that checks the flop OOP (after callin' a 4-bet :confused:) I would say that you bet here. Bet something around half pot ($15-$18).
 
F Paulsson

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On ranges: With stacks this deep, I wouldn't be all too surprised to find a whole bunch of pocket pairs in his range just because he could figure you to have a monster and he has 11:1 in implied odds if he makes the call and spikes. In general, people love set mining and will look very hard for odds to make the call. Very, very hard.

But that essentially puts him on either a set or an underpair. I've seen people show up with stuff like QTs in spots like this before, but the strong draw part of his range is going to be miniscule in proportion to anything else, so we don't really need to worry about that.

Versus sets, I don't see us walking away from this hand with any money left in our stacks. If we check back the flop, we're sure as hell not folding the turn or the river after inviting him to bluff. Versus underpairs, we're going to have a hard time getting the money in. Offhand, I'd guess that he's willing to at least call a reasonably sized bet on the flop with QQ or KK because, well, people do that: Peel one off and hope you don't bet the turn or the river. I also feel that if you check back the flop, you've removed any hope of his that your 4-bet was a bluff, because there's no way (is there?) that you'd check back an ace-high flop if you 4-bet light.

My default line would be to bet (and call, if it comes to that) the flop and check back the turn. Also, betting this flop and getting him to spaz out and shove 77 (or some other random hand that he decided he had odds to call with) thinking that you could fold QQ is awesome. Doesn't happen often but often enough to make betting a very attractive alternative to just checking back.

Also, I don't remember if I ever wrote this down somewhere on the web, but I had a thought a few months back where I looked at "fold equity" and decided that the concept, as used, was flawed in situations like this. It's wrong to think of our "fold equity" versus pocket eights in this situation as 2 outs worth of equity in an $18 pot. It isn't. It's 2 outs worth of equity of our entire stack, because if we check back the flop and he spikes an eight, he's stacking us. That brings up the "fold equity" of betting and getting him to fold 88 up from $.81 to $4.30 or so. Not enough to offset the other benefits of checking back (inducing bluffs, chiefly) but certainly adds to the benefit of betting here.

As a sidenote, I don't think he has kings. I don't think many would flat kings out of position, even 200 deep. If this is the kind of player who's afraid to get money in preflop, his 10% 3-bet is a weird way of expressing it. Queens maybe. Tens and jacks are probably the most heavily weighted portion of his range, which is unfortunate since a jack flopped, but we can't do much about that at this point, simply because there are more tens than jacks, and queens and kings are at least likely enough to offset us being behind aces and nines.
 
F Paulsson

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Clarification addendum: I think AK fits his range pretty squarely as well, but I didn't mention it because it's not terribly interesting. We're never going to get him to fold and I can't figure out a way for us to play this where we'd make a proper fold either so discussing how to play versus an inevitable split is mostly pointless for hand analysis purposes.
 
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