$50 NLHE 6-max: 50NL 6max. line check-call flop raise and open shove turn.

$50 NL HE 6-max: 50NL 6max. line check-call flop raise and open shove turn.

full tilt poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $50.00
BTN: $63.85
Hero (SB): $50.00
BB: $51.60
UTG: $82.45
MP: $72.85

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is SB with A♦ A♥
UTG raises to $1.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $4.75

Flop: ($13.50) 8♣ 4♠ K♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $7.75, UTG raises to $19, Hero calls $11.25

Turn: ($51.50) 2♦ (2 players)
Hero bets $24.50 all in, UTG requests TIME, UTG calls $24.50

River: ($100.50) 7♦ (2 players - 1 is all in)

Villain in this case is pretty loose and been pretty active. But my question is more regarding the line and not this particular hand or opponent.

This is not my standard line in these spots but sorta been experimenting with it.. Calling a flop raise in a 3bet pot and open shoving turn when OOP.. i've been trying this line when i think i have little or no fold equity of shoving the flop.

In this case with a flush draw on board, shoving flop would prob have been better cos a spade turn would have put me in a difficult spot. But what about this line if its a rainbow board? (if he has a set then its pretty much a cooler imo). So guess my question is what you think of this line.?



PS: sorry for the title.. 1st time posting on this forum.. Didnt know it worked that way..

The line you took is fine, when he reraises you on flop you can be sure he will call your allin on turn or get it allin on flop after he reraises.

I don't really see how your line is any different/better than just getting it in on the flop. He's folding anything he was bluffing with on the flop and calling the turn with everything else. I suppose your equity is a little better when he has a spade draw but you can't fold on a spade turn anyway with so little left behind in relation to the pot size.

I'd say just get it in on the flop here. He should never (almost never) show up with a set, so expect to see TP hands and flush draws.

Thing is by shoving the turn i would be pricing out a naked flush draw..
Dont know how to do the math on this. Maybe some1 could help me.

So lets say our hands are turned face up after his flop raise and he has a naked flushdraw.
Which is more +ev??
To shove the flop, knowing he is going to call. (~61.5% fav)
or
Call the flop raise and shoving any non flush card. folding to a flush card on the turn. (Assuming hands are turned face up). So he will have to fold the turn with a missed flush draw.

Does any1 know how to do the math on this?? Sorry if this is dumb. kinda curious..

In this hand he turned out to have a flush draw A9 and called the turn shove.

Thing is hands aren't face up and if you ever check/fold the turn on a spade when he doesn't have the flush it's a horrible mistake.

You actually have 63.6% equity on the flop, which is plenty enough to get it in.

As long as you're never folding a spade turn (and you shouldn't) and he's never folding a non-spade turn (which he shouldn't) the overall EV of getting it in on the flop and the turn is exactly the same.

Now let's suppose that we're never folding a spade turn but that he will fold all his TP-no spade hands he would have stacked with on the flop if a spade hits the turn. That's also a horrible result for you. Just get it in on the flop and don't fear the spade draw. You're going to make tons of money here.

Grunching

It's a 3-bet pot, shove flop

Edit: Yeah WVHillbilly's got it nailed

Definitely agree it is a profitable spot.

Was just wondering if this line has any merit over shoving flop with zero fold equity. And the only way i can see it better is i will be pricing out flush draws on the turn. Which i would not be if i shoved flop. Of course, shoving flop and fist pumping is the normal way to go. And the occasional hero call with KJ type hands which probably dont call a flop shove.

Oh well i guess i'll leave it at that because i see that shoving flop is obviously highly profitable and saves me from a lot of tricky spots. Thanks for the comments..

One more thing: You DO NOT want him to fold at any point in this hand with a flush draw. It's a bad result for you whenever your opponent fails to make mistakes.

Yea i agree but that was part of my reasoning to turn shove..
Shoving flop, he would be getting the right odds to call with the fd although he would be behind.
shoving turn on the other hand, he would be making a mistake by calling with the fd.. this is y i saw merit in playing it this way. Giving him the chance to make the mistake. So that's the reason i asked for the math with the hands face up.. because if it i expect to get more value by shoving turn and him folding turn + he might make a mistake of calling with the FD without the right odds. (Non FD hands wouldn't really make a diff between shoving flop or turn unless the turn is a spade)

This was my thought process for this thread but i understand the reasons to y shoving the flop is better.

Fold equity isn't something we're concerned about if we think we have the best hand.

Also, calling flop/shoving turn sounds good in theory but you're not taking into account the fact that the flush gets there some percentage of the time on the turn, and you're stuck in a really crappy spot.

Just shove flop - you get the money in against Kx when you're a huge favourite, before a scare card like an ace or a flush card kills your action, and you get the money in as a huge favourite over flush draws.

When you call flop and shove the turn, you have improved equity when no spade hits but worse equity when one does and you're shoving then anyway. Your problem here might be that you discarded the possibility of a spade hitting as some crappy spot you'll deal with when it happens and focussed on the better spot when one doesn't. They balance each other out.

Just shove the flop, no one is folding.