$50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: Two Pair Called Shove on the Turn

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Cini4

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$50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE 6-max: Two Pair Called Shove on the Turn

Do you feel like this hand was well played? Was this a loose call on the Turn?Are you calling here with two pair a lot? I felt like on the flop he may have had a straight or flush draw so i considered raising my two pair. The problem i had with raising was that this guy was a maniac and I did not want to build a pot and get put into a tough spot later. The straight draw gets there on the Turn and the villain shoves. I considered folding but i felt like the line did not make sense, if he had the nuts he would likely bet smaller to keep worse hands in not just shove and get no value. I decided to call based off the villains rep.

PokerStars - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players

BB (BB): 197.5 BB
UTG (UTG): 132.53 BB
CO (CO): 86.37 BB
Hero (BTN): 73.27 BB
SB (SB): 74.97 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Dealt to Hero: QhTh

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 12 BB, fold, Hero calls 9 BB

Flop (25.5 BB, 2 players): 8dQdTs

BB bets 12.13 BB, Hero calls 12.13 BB

Turn (49.77 BB, 2 players): Ah

BB bets 55 BB, Hero calls 49.13 BB and is all-in

River (148.03 BB, 2 players): 5d


BB shows: KcAd

(One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 60%, Flop 22%, Turn 27%)

Hero shows: QhTh

(Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
(Pre 40%, Flop 78%, Turn 73%)

Hero wins 141.37 BB
 
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gustav197poker

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I think the call on the turn is a questionable decision against a maniac. Because you're not in good shape to catch bluffs here. By blocking double pairs larger than yours, now the wide range of a v has 9 free (A-8) combos, which could induce IP calls. Maybe against a player of more closed rank I could try to catch here. But against a maniac, we probably have little capacity available with the bottom of our range.
Greetings.
 
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Alucard

Alucard

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I think the call on the turn is a questionable decision against a maniac.Maybe against a player of more closed rank I could try to catch here. But against a maniac, we probably have little capacity available with the bottom of our range.
Greetings.


How is bluff catching would be better vs a tight player rather than a maniac? Doesn't make sense to me. I think exactly the opposite
Maniacs range is much more wider including draws, some pure bluffs trying to rep an Ace etc

Also I'm not folding here. Probably wouldn't mind jamming the flop as well considering the player. I guess bluff catching turn would be far more profitable vs him
Also top up
 
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gustav197poker

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How is bluff catching would be better vs a tight player rather than a maniac? Doesn't make sense to me. I think exactly the opposite
Maniacs range is much more wider including draws, some pure bluffs trying to rep an Ace etc

Also I'm not folding here. Probably wouldn't mind jamming the flop as well considering the player. I guess bluff catching turn would be far more profitable vs him
Also top up


That without counting K-J that also came there. Nor do we have flush blocker. You must not think like me. You are free to reason as you see fit.
 
Alucard

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That without counting K-J that also came there. Nor do we have flush blocker. You must not think like me. You are free to reason as you see fit.


so wouldn't a tight player have KJ here?
Why does not having a flush blocker matter here vs a maniac who can jam a flush draw as well?

If you consider both TAG, & Maniacish players ranges the answer to this becomes pretty easy. the maniac can have all the nutted hands while having semi bluffs, pure bluffs, weaker hands made to bluffs which he can jam the turn while a TAG would rarely jam such hands while having all the nutted hands.
So it's easy to understand vs which range you have more equity
 
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gustav197poker

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so wouldn't a tight player have KJ here?
Why does not having a flush blocker matter here vs a maniac who can jam a flush draw as well?

If you consider both TAG, & Maniacish players ranges the answer to this becomes pretty easy. the maniac can have all the nutted hands while having semi bluffs, pure bluffs, weaker hands made to bluffs which he can jam the turn while a TAG would rarely jam such hands while having all the nutted hands.
So it's easy to understand vs which range you have more equity



Of power, yes. He can have K-J if is a TAG. Although this is less likely, because I don't think I want to be exposed to a deceptive size of BTN and with a limper in the middle. Maybe he could come in with some combo suit. And in that case, if it would make sense to print all the pressure, with a large battery.
If the loose villain acquires his ace, I can believe more in a low kicker that I doesn't block with this texture. Ax makes a lot of sense to me in an aggressive rival.
 
Aballinamion

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Do you feel like this hand was well played? Was this a loose call on the Turn?Are you calling here with two pair a lot? I felt like on the flop he may have had a straight or flush draw so i considered raising my two pair. The problem i had with raising was that this guy was a maniac and I did not want to build a pot and get put into a tough spot later. The straight draw gets there on the Turn and the villain shoves. I considered folding but i felt like the line did not make sense, if he had the nuts he would likely bet smaller to keep worse hands in not just shove and get no value. I decided to call based off the villains rep.

PokerStars - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players

BB (BB): 197.5 BB
UTG (UTG): 132.53 BB
CO (CO): 86.37 BB
Hero (BTN): 73.27 BB
SB (SB): 74.97 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Dealt to Hero: QhTh

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 12 BB, fold, Hero calls 9 BB

Flop (25.5 BB, 2 players): 8dQdTs

BB bets 12.13 BB, Hero calls 12.13 BB

Turn (49.77 BB, 2 players): Ah

BB bets 55 BB, Hero calls 49.13 BB and is all-in

River (148.03 BB, 2 players): 5d


BB shows: KcAd

(One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 60%, Flop 22%, Turn 27%)

Hero shows: QhTh

(Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
(Pre 40%, Flop 78%, Turn 73%)

Hero wins 141.37 BB


Hi there Cini4, thank you very much for posting your hand.
Now, I would like to understand why were you playing with less than 100 blinds of effective stack? If you had 100 bb effective stack you would take down a much bigger pot.
Unless you are playing short stack strategy, than forget about everything that I am saying.

You said that BB is a maniac right? Was it a regular table, I assume? Because if it were a Zoom table it would be harder to tell if the opponent is a maniac or simply a tight player overplaying. (why? :rolleyes:)
Ever since you decided to play with a broken stack, at lower limits such as 50 NLHE, regulars will exploit you a lot just because of the simple fact that you are not BSS (Big Stack Strategy = 100 BB at minimum). 100% of regulars these days are playing BSS, so when it comes a broken stack they are automatically classified as weak ones.
Maybe this player that you are calling 'maniac' was just a regular of the field trying to level against you or other players with broken stack at the table (except for the BB, all the players in the table were broken stack).
So, maybe this is a good reason for even a NIT try to level and widen its range a bit, because it will create the image of "non-sense player". (perceived range).

Preflop

When it comes a limper before you and you decide to raise, go for 3.5x, 4x or 4.5x.
3 blinds is simply to cheap for the player in the BB to enter the pot for odds and so does the player in the CO who limped first and then game over, because QT will not play very well 3-handed (actually not even AA playes okay 3-handed so we don't want to give excellent odds for our opponents to call/3-bet/Squeeze).
The player in the BB 3-bets for 4x and you decided to call in position. It is okay to call here, but be aware that because this "maniac" is out of position he could be calling more than raising for trying to trap you postflop with whatever what.
When you decide to call, no matter how maniac this player is, it still has better hands than you such as AA, KK, JJ, 99, etc; AK, AQ, AJ, A9, A8, etc; Also KQ, KJ, K9, those are hands that BB could be 3-betting in a higher frequency versus a broken stack player who commits a slight blunder of raising a limper very cheap.

Flop:

Flop comes 8QT and BB elects to make a very large c-bet out of position, probably seeking too much fold equity, since BB has a perceived range of QQ, AQ, and it is trying to represent QT (which it doesn't have).
BB betting too much is also another tell that maybe, with all due respect, the Villain in the Big Blind thought you were a recreational player/fish. Against other regulars he's never betting this volume either with its value range or bluff range. ;)
Because you called in the button you can have T8, QT, Q8?, even 88 and TT. Given that the player in the BB commited a blunder here, polarizing its range with a strong bet (nearly 1/2 pot), I would go for a check-raise on this flop with all my value range, for protection.
The only hands we could be losing here are 88, QQ and TT, and we believe that BB would take a different line if it had those hands.
On the other hand there is a flush draw+straight draw on the flop, and many turns can end our action and put us on very extreme hard spots, when it comes another diamond, or another overcard such as A, K and J.
SO on the flop, either we decide to raise for value and protection our Two Pair types and Sets (our flush draws should not be raising here, because Villain still can have AQ and QQ on its range), or we decide to fold, which I believe would be a bigger mistake than calling.
By calling you are letting the BB to realize the equity of its bluffs very cheap, and given the SPR, it doesn't matter now if it comes another diamond or an Ace on the turn you have to go here, no matter if it comes a tomahawk missile on the turn/river!
However, when you call this flop, you are capping your range for some crazy pocket pair that is sticky to the board such as 99, JJ or you have flush draws+straight draws and is trying to float these hands on many turns/rivers that are better for BTN's range than the BB's range.
Regulars are expecting you to raise your sets and two pair here quite a few chunck of times, so when you call you almost never can represent those hands, and when it comes a turn, BB will feel free to tryna bluff you out of the pot, especially if it has some removal on tis range.

Turn:

It comes an Ace and the player in the BB elects to jam, which it doesn't make any sense at all: if BB had QQ, TT and 88, now those hands had lost a lot of value, because when Hero/BTN calls it could be calling with flush-draws and straight draws and gutters and this turn isn't the best card for bluffing, at all. Yes, by calling flop you capped your range for FD+SD or mostly "floating airs", this is what the BB thought.
On the other side, if BB had completed a straight now, it could be simply checking trying to induce you to bluff your Two Pair types and Sets AT, AQ, A8, QT, Q8, 88 and TT, AA you will have none here but BB could have some in its range. The diamond is the least of the concerns of the BB if it has a straight right now. If it jams a straight you fold all of your bluffs and BTN can/will have a lot of bluffs on a spot like this.
BB should not be jamming its sets and two pairs here under the risk of being almost drawing dead to the button's straights.
BB is seeking a ton of fold equity, but what BB forgot is that Hero/BTN is already commited to the pot, and it's not even folding TP Good Kicker here (if you had for example AQ, AJ).
Sometimes you will have any pair and a flush draw and you should call here given the SPR of the hand, because you started it only with 73 blinds?
The odds are brutal, you have to pay 14 for a pot of 42 (not including rake), so with two pair, given that BB still has a lot of flush draws of diamonds bluffs, some Jx with a diamond or two diamonds, some Kx with a diamond or two diamonds, those are possible bluffs, but only when players are both Deep Stacked (100 blinds or more).
In this scenario BB overplayed its TPTK hand, turning a value hand into a bluff on the turn, simply because it thought that BTN was a "fish", and so it lost more than 70 blinds with one stupid error. :D
How much is the expectation for 50 NLHE? 4 BB/100? How many hours the player in the BB will have to play, making 4 blinds out of 100, in order to recover this 70 blinds, lost in the most wildly manner? OMG a lot of hours...a lot of hours! :boring::icon_flow Who was the fish here?
You played the hand fine. Try to play with a strategy of 100 BB or more because now you could've taken a pot of 200 BB or more! It is not happening everytime such as 2 NLHE at 50 NLHE so we must take a spot like this and embrace it.
Before putting opponents into boxes and classifying them based only on recent behavior, try to see the whole picture of the table and you will discover that sometimes even players that are Rocks/NITS play very wild and aggressively: when they believe that it has edge over all other players on the table, because they showed clear signs of weakness: limping, limp-calling, over-calling, playing with broken stacks, raising in dominated spots where it clearly doesn't have range advantage, etc.


Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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so wouldn't a tight player have KJ here?
Why does not having a flush blocker matter here vs a maniac who can jam a flush draw as well?

If you consider both TAG, & Maniacish players ranges the answer to this becomes pretty easy. the maniac can have all the nutted hands while having semi bluffs, pure bluffs, weaker hands made to bluffs which he can jam the turn while a TAG would rarely jam such hands while having all the nutted hands.
So it's easy to understand vs which range you have more equity

Lemme kindly participate on this war and try to be gentle with our friends here on the forum who are trying to learn, help and improve their game to the next level.
With all due respect, Alucard, I'm afraid you are misreading a bit players styles/perceived ranges:

A real TAG at 50 NLHE, actually, could have on its range nutte hands and semi-bluffs (balance): very rare a TAG to have air bluffs on the turn since the hand is not decided yet and many times the semi-bluffs will have potential to reach its equity on the river. Including pure air bluffs on a TAG's range would unbalance its game too much, so for this reason it is polarizing with nutted hands and semi-bluffs, always. Value hands only on very specific scenarios TAGs would be turning into a bluff. The hand in question is not the best spot for turning TPTK into a bluff.
Besides, a TAG player would never be shoving here weaker hands or any other hand with showdown value, because a TAG understand what is a bluff, a semi-bluff and a hand that has showdown value.
Although, I never believe the BB is a 'maniac' as described for the poster of hand. BB can simply be a TAG player trying to explore broken stack players (the whole table was short stacked, except the player in the BB which induces me to assume that it has more chance of being a regular than the others). BB played this way because it was certain that BTN is a recreational and could be calling down with worst aces, queens, sometimes tens, draws, dominated and weaker hands, etc. Because the player in the BTN didn't raise its two pair/sets, capping its range for weaker hands and semi-bluffs. (over-leveling).
Against a player with a very short stack it would be fine this kind of exploitation, but BTN had 73 blinds when the hand started and I see no reason at all to turn a TPTK+Gutter and Flush Nuts Blocker into a bluff. In theory, BTN would never pay here with worse hands and even the bluffs that BTN could have paid here such as FD+SD have a lot of equity for the river (20-30% equity).
Now, on a very creative player at those limits, we certainly would find so unbalanced Tom Durr imitator trying to bluff anything it has and of course, could have in higher frequency more pure air bluffs on the turn than usual (unbalanced regular/aggro donkey).
To finish, BTN could never fold this shove turn because of the SPR. Second Two Pair are way too strong considering BB's 3-bet ligh range versus BTN calling range most of times BTN will have a slight advantage.
The BB's line doesn't make any sense on the flop or on the turn. What the player in the BB really did was to enter into some paranoid leveling stupid war that it costed it 74 blinds on one single pot, and it takes a lot of time to make such ammount these days given our low winrate at lower limits as 50 NLHE.

PS: an aggro donkey, 'maniac' would never have nutted hands on its range when it bets, because it is nervously clicking buttons without ever thinking about ranges/perceived ranges. Sometimes it runs in a very lucky streak, but most of times it is not profitable at all, maybe at higher limits such as 1000 NLHE or above the aggro-donkey style is more effective: players simply pay too much from 2 NLHE to 100 NLHE, simply for leveling.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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Hi there Cini4, thank you very much for posting your hand.
Now, I would like to understand why were you playing with less than 100 blinds of effective stack? If you had 100 bb effective stack you would take down a much bigger pot.
Unless you are playing short stack strategy, than forget about everything that I am saying.

You said that BB is a maniac right? Was it a regular table, I assume? Because if it were a Zoom table it would be harder to tell if the opponent is a maniac or simply a tight player overplaying. (why? :rolleyes:)
Ever since you decided to play with a broken stack, at lower limits such as 50 NLHE, regulars will exploit you a lot just because of the simple fact that you are not BSS (Big Stack Strategy = 100 BB at minimum). 100% of regulars these days are playing BSS, so when it comes a broken stack they are automatically classified as weak ones.
Maybe this player that you are calling 'maniac' was just a regular of the field trying to level against you or other players with broken stack at the table (except for the BB, all the players in the table were broken stack).
So, maybe this is a good reason for even a NIT try to level and widen its range a bit, because it will create the image of "non-sense player". (perceived range).

Preflop

When it comes a limper before you and you decide to raise, go for 3.5x, 4x or 4.5x.
3 blinds is simply to cheap for the player in the BB to enter the pot for odds and so does the player in the CO who limped first and then game over, because QT will not play very well 3-handed (actually not even AA playes okay 3-handed so we don't want to give excellent odds for our opponents to call/3-bet/Squeeze).
The player in the BB 3-bets for 4x and you decided to call in position. It is okay to call here, but be aware that because this "maniac" is out of position he could be calling more than raising for trying to trap you postflop with whatever what.
When you decide to call, no matter how maniac this player is, it still has better hands than you such as AA, KK, JJ, 99, etc; AK, AQ, AJ, A9, A8, etc; Also KQ, KJ, K9, those are hands that BB could be 3-betting in a higher frequency versus a broken stack player who commits a slight blunder of raising a limper very cheap.

Flop:

Flop comes 8QT and BB elects to make a very large c-bet out of position, probably seeking too much fold equity, since BB has a perceived range of QQ, AQ, and it is trying to represent QT (which it doesn't have).
BB betting too much is also another tell that maybe, with all due respect, the Villain in the Big Blind thought you were a recreational player/fish. Against other regulars he's never betting this volume either with its value range or bluff range. ;)
Because you called in the button you can have T8, QT, Q8?, even 88 and TT. Given that the player in the BB commited a blunder here, polarizing its range with a strong bet (nearly 1/2 pot), I would go for a check-raise on this flop with all my value range, for protection.
The only hands we could be losing here are 88, QQ and TT, and we believe that BB would take a different line if it had those hands.
On the other hand there is a flush draw+straight draw on the flop, and many turns can end our action and put us on very extreme hard spots, when it comes another diamond, or another overcard such as A, K and J.
SO on the flop, either we decide to raise for value and protection our Two Pair types and Sets (our flush draws should not be raising here, because Villain still can have AQ and QQ on its range), or we decide to fold, which I believe would be a bigger mistake than calling.
By calling you are letting the BB to realize the equity of its bluffs very cheap, and given the SPR, it doesn't matter now if it comes another diamond or an Ace on the turn you have to go here, no matter if it comes a tomahawk missile on the turn/river!
However, when you call this flop, you are capping your range for some crazy pocket pair that is sticky to the board such as 99, JJ or you have flush draws+straight draws and is trying to float these hands on many turns/rivers that are better for BTN's range than the BB's range.
Regulars are expecting you to raise your sets and two pair here quite a few chunck of times, so when you call you almost never can represent those hands, and when it comes a turn, BB will feel free to tryna bluff you out of the pot, especially if it has some removal on tis range.

Turn:

It comes an Ace and the player in the BB elects to jam, which it doesn't make any sense at all: if BB had QQ, TT and 88, now those hands had lost a lot of value, because when Hero/BTN calls it could be calling with flush-draws and straight draws and gutters and this turn isn't the best card for bluffing, at all. Yes, by calling flop you capped your range for FD+SD or mostly "floating airs", this is what the BB thought.
On the other side, if BB had completed a straight now, it could be simply checking trying to induce you to bluff your Two Pair types and Sets AT, AQ, A8, QT, Q8, 88 and TT, AA you will have none here but BB could have some in its range. The diamond is the least of the concerns of the BB if it has a straight right now. If it jams a straight you fold all of your bluffs and BTN can/will have a lot of bluffs on a spot like this.
BB should not be jamming its sets and two pairs here under the risk of being almost drawing dead to the button's straights.
BB is seeking a ton of fold equity, but what BB forgot is that Hero/BTN is already commited to the pot, and it's not even folding TP Good Kicker here (if you had for example AQ, AJ).
Sometimes you will have any pair and a flush draw and you should call here given the SPR of the hand, because you started it only with 73 blinds?
The odds are brutal, you have to pay 14 for a pot of 42 (not including rake), so with two pair, given that BB still has a lot of flush draws of diamonds bluffs, some Jx with a diamond or two diamonds, some Kx with a diamond or two diamonds, those are possible bluffs, but only when players are both Deep Stacked (100 blinds or more).
In this scenario BB overplayed its TPTK hand, turning a value hand into a bluff on the turn, simply because it thought that BTN was a "fish", and so it lost more than 70 blinds with one stupid error. :D
How much is the expectation for 50 NLHE? 4 BB/100? How many hours the player in the BB will have to play, making 4 blinds out of 100, in order to recover this 70 blinds, lost in the most wildly manner? OMG a lot of hours...a lot of hours! :boring::icon_flow Who was the fish here?
You played the hand fine. Try to play with a strategy of 100 BB or more because now you could've taken a pot of 200 BB or more! It is not happening everytime such as 2 NLHE at 50 NLHE so we must take a spot like this and embrace it.
Before putting opponents into boxes and classifying them based only on recent behavior, try to see the whole picture of the table and you will discover that sometimes even players that are Rocks/NITS play very wild and aggressively: when they believe that it has edge over all other players on the table, because they showed clear signs of weakness: limping, limp-calling, over-calling, playing with broken stacks, raising in dominated spots where it clearly doesn't have range advantage, etc.


Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa




Friend, I think that your interpretation of limited range is correct in this case towards BTN. But if you put it on a fixed line of 2 pairs to the villain located in the BB (which we say is a maniac, or also called super aggressive), the BB has 9 A-8 combos in his range, which hero cannot block + 6 AT combos + maybe some flush draw combo (with high blocker). On the other hand, hero has invested 1/3 of his stack in this hand in the post flop. So if we specifically consider this line of 2 pairs in the super aggressive villain, it would not be a mistake to withdraw with this hand in the turn.
It also makes sense that a very aggressive player exerts all the pressure against a short stack, with those hands, and that he induces cheaper IP calls with stronger hands like sets or straights.
When I told Alucard that it is unlikely to consider KJ in a TAG. I meant that a semi-closed and semi-open / post flop range would probably not look for a 3-way place, to build a fold equity with a limper and a BTN that bets 3bb with a stack of 73bb. But I think that if the villain had the possibility of suspecting weakness in the BTN, I would not hesitate to induce calls with very strong hands and making large polarized bets. Because I would know that the BTN is engaged in the flop, after calling. (although in reality as I say, hero may have the possibility to realize this and leave this place, with 2/3 de his stack).
Agree that it is best to play with full stack.
 
nghoffman

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Do you feel like this hand was well played? Was this a loose call on the Turn?Are you calling here with two pair a lot? I felt like on the flop he may have had a straight or flush draw so i considered raising my two pair. The problem i had with raising was that this guy was a maniac and I did not want to build a pot and get put into a tough spot later. The straight draw gets there on the Turn and the villain shoves. I considered folding but i felt like the line did not make sense, if he had the nuts he would likely bet smaller to keep worse hands in not just shove and get no value. I decided to call based off the villains rep.

PokerStars - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players

BB (BB): 197.5 BB
UTG (UTG): 132.53 BB
CO (CO): 86.37 BB
Hero (BTN): 73.27 BB
SB (SB): 74.97 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Dealt to Hero: QhTh

fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB raises to 12 BB, fold, Hero calls 9 BB

Flop (25.5 BB, 2 players): 8dQdTs

BB bets 12.13 BB, Hero calls 12.13 BB

Turn (49.77 BB, 2 players): Ah

BB bets 55 BB, Hero calls 49.13 BB and is all-in

River (148.03 BB, 2 players): 5d


BB shows: KcAd

(One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 60%, Flop 22%, Turn 27%)

Hero shows: QhTh

(Two Pair, Queens and Tens)
(Pre 40%, Flop 78%, Turn 73%)

Hero wins 141.37 BB

This is a good call. When the BB bets less than half the pot on the flop, he probably didn't hit anything, which makes him having AK much more of a possibility. On the turn, you're really only losing to an AQ or maybe a K10. But, it's definitely worth a call. Good job.
 
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fundiver199

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I felt like on the flop he may have had a straight or flush draw so i considered raising my two pair. The problem i had with raising was that this guy was a maniac and I did not want to build a pot and get put into a tough spot later.
The whole point of raising on a wet flop like this is exactly to avoid being put into a tough spot later, as in fact you did on this turn card. There was a pot sized bet let, so a raise is all-in, and then you have no more decisions to make. If he fold, you win, and if he makes the call, then come what may.
 
Alucard

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The whole point of raising on a wet flop like this is exactly to avoid being put into a tough spot later, as in fact you did on this turn card. There was a pot sized bet let, so a raise is all-in, and then you have no more decisions to make. If he fold, you win, and if he makes the call, then come what may.


This isn't exactly true. If you hate playing tough spots then you shouldn't be playing poker.
What you should try is to make the most +ev decisions. So in ithis spot, it relies heavily on the villains' playstyle.
A bad turn card might kill the action vs some players while some would take it to their advantage.
So it's more about in what range you put him in considering what kind of player he is
IMO
 
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fundiver199

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This isn't exactly true. If you hate playing tough spots then you shouldn't be playing poker.

That might be true, but we dont avoid tough spots by slowplaying, we create them. In this situation I think, it is much more profitable to play fast, and as an added advantage it is also easier. Just ask yourself, if you are Villain here with AK, would you rather, that Hero just called you on the flop, or would you prefer, that Hero jammed on you?

The answer is, you would rather, that Hero just called, because if Hero jam, you have to fold, and that is the same as being put check-mate. You invested a third of the effective stack and dont even get to realise your equity. So by slowplaying a vulnerable hand on such a dynamic board, we are not making life more difficult for our opponent. We are making it more difficult for ourself. Sure it worked this time, because Villain improved to a hand, that was still worse than ours, but that is the definition of being results oriented.
 
Aballinamion

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Friend, I think that your interpretation of limited range is correct in this case towards BTN. But if you put it on a fixed line of 2 pairs to the villain located in the BB (which we say is a maniac, or also called super aggressive), the BB has 9 A-8 combos in his range, which hero cannot block + 6 AT combos + maybe some flush draw combo (with high blocker). On the other hand, hero has invested 1/3 of his stack in this hand in the post flop. So if we specifically consider this line of 2 pairs in the super aggressive villain, it would not be a mistake to withdraw with this hand in the turn.
It also makes sense that a very aggressive player exerts all the pressure against a short stack, with those hands, and that he induces cheaper IP calls with stronger hands like sets or straights.
When I told Alucard that it is unlikely to consider KJ in a TAG. I meant that a semi-closed and semi-open / post flop range would probably not look for a 3-way place, to build a fold equity with a limper and a BTN that bets 3bb with a stack of 73bb. But I think that if the villain had the possibility of suspecting weakness in the BTN, I would not hesitate to induce calls with very strong hands and making large polarized bets. Because I would know that the BTN is engaged in the flop, after calling. (although in reality as I say, hero may have the possibility to realize this and leave this place, with 2/3 de his stack).
Agree that it is best to play with full stack.

Good morning and thank you for your attention. Yes, man, BB, either maniac or regular, could not simply call for odds preflop, because there was a limper in the CO. Raising means that the player in the BB wishes to isolate the player of the CO or the BTN to play heads-up, which increases the playability of the hand and the relative equity.
As I described on my analysis, Villain BB could have these combos of KQ, KJ, AK, AQ, etc, however there were just a few of them.
To me, this is simply a SPR standard hand where the BB hadn't too many options because it had a strong value hand on the turn and because BTN was broken stack, so it was not the best move in the world (bet 1/2 pot and shove turn), but considering that BTN was short-stacked at a 6-MAX cash table, starts to make sense.
I agree with fundiver199 here, BTN is short-stacked and should be jamming the flop for protection, since there are just a couple of tiny part of BB's range beating right now.
In fact, I don't understand what this discussion is all about, since everyone on the table was broken stack and postflop the SPR dictates the moves: it was preposterous if either BTN or BB folded anything right now, given the price.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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That might be true, but we dont avoid tough spots by slowplaying, we create them. In this situation I think, it is much more profitable to play fast, and as an added advantage it is also easier. Just ask yourself, if you are Villain here with AK, would you rather, that Hero just called you on the flop, or would you prefer, that Hero jammed on you?

The answer is, you would rather, that Hero just called, because if Hero jam, you have to fold, and that is the same as being put check-mate. You invested a third of the effective stack and dont even get to realise your equity. So by slowplaying a vulnerable hand on such a dynamic board, we are not making life more difficult for our opponent. We are making it more difficult for ourself. Sure it worked this time, because Villain improved to a hand, that was still worse than ours, but that is the definition of being results oriented.

Bravo, congratulations! It is very easy to say what to do or what not to do after we saw the showdown and the result of the hand. Besides, it is a little flaw consider BB a maniac because any kind, style of player would be 3-betting preflo AKo or AKs in a preflop situation like this, except those very passive and non-sense players, which is not the case.
BB played exploitative poker from the very beginning to the end. What I was trying to say here is that if BB is a regular, it is playing more GTO versus the regulars of the field (however everyone on the table was shorty stacky). Thank you for your attention!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Alucard

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That might be true, but we dont avoid tough spots by slowplaying, we create them. In this situation I think, it is much more profitable to play fast, and as an added advantage it is also easier. Just ask yourself, if you are Villain here with AK, would you rather, that Hero just called you on the flop, or would you prefer, that Hero jammed on you?

The answer is, you would rather, that Hero just called, because if Hero jam, you have to fold, and that is the same as being put check-mate. You invested a third of the effective stack and dont even get to realise your equity. So by slowplaying a vulnerable hand on such a dynamic board, we are not making life more difficult for our opponent. We are making it more difficult for ourself. Sure it worked this time, because Villain improved to a hand, that was still worse than ours, but that is the definition of being results oriented.


I'd prefer if hero folded. You are the one being result oriented at this point putting him on AK.
We don't need to jam here with top 2pair. You just get called with better or overpairs mostly. While folding out most of his bluffs. Some will call with some draws but that's about it.
Consider villain having complete air, a lower pp,or something like AJ,KT. Jamming flop would make his life very easy. but he might try to rep something on a scareish turn if we'd just call.
Our hand isn't vulnerable vs most of the villains nutted range. Even if he had a decent flush draw he would probably GII vs a flop jam so there's no point.
Keeping his entire range open at this point is the most profitable play vs a loose aggroish player
vs a tight player I'd consider raise/GII flop cause a bad turn might completely kill the action
 
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gustav197poker

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Good morning and thank you for your attention. Yes, man, BB, either maniac or regular, could not simply call for odds preflop, because there was a limper in the CO. Raising means that the player in the BB wishes to isolate the player of the CO or the BTN to play heads-up, which increases the playability of the hand and the relative equity.
As I described on my analysis, Villain BB could have these combos of KQ, KJ, AK, AQ, etc, however there were just a few of them.
To me, this is simply a SPR standard hand where the BB hadn't too many options because it had a strong value hand on the turn and because BTN was broken stack, so it was not the best move in the world (bet 1/2 pot and shove turn), but considering that BTN was short-stacked at a 6-MAX cash table, starts to make sense.
I agree with fundiver199 here, BTN is short-stacked and should be jamming the flop for protection, since there are just a couple of tiny part of BB's range beating right now.
In fact, I don't understand what this discussion is all about, since everyone on the table was broken stack and postflop the SPR dictates the moves: it was preposterous if either BTN or BB folded anything right now, given the price.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa






Dear friend, If we consider the line jam in the flop, we are creating a dimension quite limited in the range of the villain.
We are well in our value range, we overcome several low values, which a super aggressive player could bet hard here. But after your push the villain will not hesitate to abandon them. We block sets and we are only below 3 combos of 8-8. Now all the pure bluffs of V will be forced to retreat and only hands strong and combinations that have equity against us will continue. In fact, it is a disadvantage not to have a flush blocker here, because any Adxd combo gives the villain the necessary odds to continue our line b / jam on the flop.
If we rely exclusively on the SPR there is no discussion here. But if we can establish some semi bluff structure in BB, we are possibly with the lowest part of our range. And from that perspective, we have little strength in our bluff catcher structure, for a very wide range that probably decided to induce aggressive lines, in order to get their implied odds that we cannot block on this board.
In addition, the induction of aggressiveness to the BTN from the flop, on the part of a super aggressive villain, makes sense with a very open initial line like J-9, which we do not control on this board either and that the villain could have search for a profitable isolation, with closed lines such as x / jam; b / jam, from this flop. Regards Carlos.
 
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Consider villain having complete air, a lower pp,or something like AJ,KT. Jamming flop would make his life very easy.

Sure but unless he is completely terrible, why would he be C-betting complete garbage on a board, which is all over our range? Unless I have reason to believe otherwise, I always start by assuming, that my opponent is using some kind of reasonable strategy / range. To me, that mean, that in this spot he rarely has less than 20% equity, and then I dont really care, if he fold on the flop, when I give him 2:1. The hands, we dont want to fold out, are AQ and KQ specifically, but I think, the vast majority of players are calling with those hands, when they get 2:1. They might not love it, but they will still call. There are also several cards, that can kill our action from AQ and KQ later, so its sort of pick your poison.
 
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Hot Topic

Dear friend, If we consider the line jam in the flop, we are creating a dimension quite limited in the range of the villain.
We are well in our value range, we overcome several low values, which a super aggressive player could bet hard here. But after your push the villain will not hesitate to abandon them. We block sets and we are only below 3 combos of 8-8. Now all the pure bluffs of V will be forced to retreat and only hands strong and combinations that have equity against us will continue. In fact, it is a disadvantage not to have a flush blocker here, because any Adxd combo gives the villain the necessary odds to continue our line b / jam on the flop.
If we rely exclusively on the SPR there is no discussion here. But if we can establish some semi bluff structure in BB, we are possibly with the lowest part of our range. And from that perspective, we have little strength in our bluff catcher structure, for a very wide range that probably decided to induce aggressive lines, in order to get their implied odds that we cannot block on this board.
In addition, the induction of aggressiveness to the BTN from the flop, on the part of a super aggressive villain, makes sense with a very open initial line like J-9, which we do not control on this board either and that the villain could have search for a profitable isolation, with closed lines such as x / jam; b / jam, from this flop. Regards Carlos.

Terrific, everything you said is correct IF BTN had 100 blinds ES. It is not the case. Givin' this low SPR, BTN is already commited even with TP No Kicker in the flop and should be jamming for value, giving how dynamic the BB's range could be.
IF BTN was 100 blinds ES when the hand began, to start with, than maybe the call would work better but many turns BTN would be have to leave its equity or "pay to see". Check-raising flop is a valid move with our two pairs, sets in a drawie board, and sometimes even the FDs and SDs.
I am not convinced at all the the player in the BB is a non-sense maniac. Thank you very much and sorry for any mistake or if I behaved too much rude, we are just trying to help one another here, not start a leveling war. Hugs!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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I am not convinced at all the the player in the BB is a non-sense maniac.

Neither am I. Hero wrote, that Villain was a maniac but provided no HUD-data to back up such a claim. It is pretty common for people to mistake a good LAG or even a good TAG for a maniac and nothing, Villain did in this hand, is particularly out of line. Jamming the turn is perhaps a bit light, but what exactly is he supposed to do, when he is OOP with TPTK on a dripping wet board and has a pot sized bet left? Hero not starting this hand with a full stack influence the way, it is played, since it is difficult to get 3 streets of betting out of such a low SPR.
 
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I'm not 100% sure if the bb really is a maniac player or not. But my opinions are based on the statement described that which says "yes it is." So I have considered that alternative. As much if in reality, this is not so. Because the analysis changes a lot, if we talk about a villain who plays with 70% of all possible combinations, than if he plays only with 30% from preflop. I guess hero is using an initial stack 80bb strategy and forgot to load his 7bb. But I don't know the truth either.
 
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Terrific, everything you said is correct IF BTN had 100 blinds ES. It is not the case. Givin' this low SPR, BTN is already commited even with TP No Kicker in the flop and should be jamming for value, giving how dynamic the BB's range could be.
IF BTN was 100 blinds ES when the hand began, to start with, than maybe the call would work better but many turns BTN would be have to leave its equity or "pay to see". Check-raising flop is a valid move with our two pairs, sets in a drawie board, and sometimes even the FDs and SDs.
I am not convinced at all the the player in the BB is a non-sense maniac. Thank you very much and sorry for any mistake or if I behaved too much rude, we are just trying to help one another here, not start a leveling war. Hugs!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa






Hi Carlos, Sorry if I said something that bothered you I have no intention of generating tensions, or anything like that. And in any case, I consider this a healthy exchange of opinions. I really like how you think the game.
I see that you stick a bit closely to the SPR parameter. And I think there are also a number of factors, which also influence when making a decision. For example, the kind of opponent you face. Apparently we don't match the type of villain we play with. Although it seems less important, this is the key to understanding the sequence and the respective assignment of the range that we will build for the villain. For example, if we consider only the SPR, we know that this is a standar call for hero. In this case, an increase that involves the shove makes more sense. The question that arises is, are we really obliged to make this line? The answers is, it depends. And it depends on the assignment of hands we have in the range of the villain. For example, if we think that we are facing a player, who plays most of the possible combinations, it is logical to think that now the villain could easily have formed a line. And in such a case, a pressure on our part would increase the possibility of an isolation, with the highest structure that we could find in the range of a very aggressive villain (in this case it would be formed of phantom hands).
On the other hand, if we think that we are facing a villain who does not have the characteristics of a maniac. In this case, we have a 100% standard decision. Now theory spr and the practice support us. Because in this case, the structure of rank v, has many values ​​dominated by our range (since we block the best sets). The bluffs catchers have a better shape in this case, because now we do not block a high structure of bluffs, which a villain of more closed range could try to convert, suspecting our weakness, because we playing with a shorter stack.
Finally, regarding the perception of the rank of the villain that we have, if we can of placing it in a specific line and we know that it affects the structure of our range negatively, this is called reading the rival and it would not be a mistake to withdraw when we think firmly that we are being defeated. I think this applies best to high stakes, but it is a reasoning anyway, that we base it on a range study and we can really give it the highest priority, when we feel confident in our reading.
That's all friend, greetings and good luck at the tables.
 
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If you put yourself in the shoes of the BB he sees two fishy looking stack sizes in CO and BTN and raises large with his AK for value. He does indeed pick up a call from a worse hand making his preflop play correct (ergo the button play is incorrect).
BB sizing on flop is fine, he will usually fold out BTN whiffs and still has overcard/ gutter equity. He hits his ace and shoves for value on the SPR v a fishy looking player who likely calls with plenty worse.
Fron BTN point of view the preflop call of the 3bet is questionable and you are going to be dominated often with this trouble hand. QT is one of the worst of the broadway combos because if you hit top pair you never know if you are good. Imo even a loose player wont be making it 12bb here with much worse than QT. With a shorter stack the BTN should be playing tighter exactly because the spr is lower and there is less room for manoeuvre.

So having hit 2pair versus a loose aggressive player then calling down is the standard play to keep in all the bluffs. BTN should only raise flop against a tight opponent who will have much more AA KK AQ in this spot that won't likely fold on this board and will probably gii on the flop v BTN stack size.
 
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