$50 NLHE 6-max: $50 NLHE : Im a spewtard, make him fold everything OTR?

Ducky7

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Ok so i think im going to get ripped apart for this hand, but anway :) Villain is a 20/15 over 70 odd hands with a 3b of 14% so i presume hes pretty aggro, and a decent player. My thinking on the flop is he could cbet a huge range of hands and i have some equity in the pot if im behind anyway.

OTT similar thinking applies but im pretty sure im behind now, but calling incase he barrels AK and im thinking there are a lot of rivers which i can make him fold on.

So the river comes :) it is a Q and he tanks for a decent while then bets, my thought process here is if he doesnt have a boat he has to fold everything else and i think based on his sizing OTR he doesnt have a boat too often and his river bet is like a blocker bet, i figured there was a high possiblilty he had AQ and potentially AA/KK (seemed quite unlikely though) and i believe he should be folding it to a river shove, because id played solid over the 14 hands id played at the table and i should never have bluffs in that spot because what hands do i turn into a bluff from his point of you (obvs i turn JJ into a bluff here) but i shouldnt be doing that really because it has enough SDV to make it ok to call sometimes.

So ye im a spewtard..

DISCLAIMER, first outrageous bluff ive pulled out in over a month. :)

poker stars $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 1983124
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $51.75
BB: $50.13
UTG: $67.43
MP: $50.00
CO: $50.00
Hero (BTN): $72.20

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero is BTN with J J
UTG raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.75, 1 fold, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.50) 9 Q T (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50, BB folds

Turn: ($12.50) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $7.50, Hero calls $7.50

River: ($27.50) Q (2 players)
UTG bets $10, Hero raises to $56.50, UTG calls $44.68 all in
 
youregoodmate

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No way you can rep a boat here surely? A set/2pair raises the flop and obv 77 cant float. So you're repping Qx here and im not sure anything but AQ shoves the river.
 
JCgrind

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this looks too much like a bare jack to me, but the again i love the herocallz. i snap you off with any ten or better here. obviously youre super polarised, and i think that your range is way more skewed to a bluff here since like YGM said, theres no way youre flatting big hands on that flop and turn, unless its KJ- in which case you dont jam over the top on the river IMO. if you hadve called pre in MP then this works. OTB though i think youre getting called every day.
 
The Messiah

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Whats his fold/3bet stat?
Whats your 3 bet stat?
lol at you saying you played solid for 14 hands, seriously..?

Knowing the above will decide on whether id 3 bet for value or just flat and keep his dominated range in this hand were we have pos, but regardless we dont have enough hands on villain so its not going to be a merged sample so I just 3 bet pre.

As played, you play the hand extremely passively, 3 bet on the flop to find out were we stand as its an easy 3bet/fold spot, hes going to 4 bet all his sets as its an extremely draw heavy board and he doesnt want a 4 card straight board to hit the turn, he will also 4 bet the nuts as you only do this with 2pair(prebably not)/sets/nuts/bluffs, which he will just go and click it back. As the nuts on the flop gets killed by the sets that you have in your range If he flats because you will just give up on turns that do make a 4 card straight board. So instead of coolering you on the flop hes losing loads of value by not 4 betting the flop with the nuts/sets that he has. Hence as said its an easy 3bet/flod spot.

If he flats then we can check back most turns and evaluate river, we can still draw to the nuts as well, and were also getting a s/d value hand to the river for cheap in pos which is great.

As regards your line/bluff, well its simple horrible..
This screams to me like an inducing bet from your AQ that he prob puts you on, as he prob expects you to 3 bet river with it. As calling would be weak(but isnt).

He has boats/straights in his range here so so often that you risking $56.50 when you have only $13 invested in the pot is just total spew. There isnt enough money in the pot for you to jam here either as the % of times that hes going to snap you off totally outweighs the times you get folds. You have a lot of FE but in a situation like this its not good to use it in such a spot were its the 'nuts' 85%+ of the time.
 
youregoodmate

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As regards your line/bluff, well its simple horrible..

Well.. it isnt. Pre is good. Raising the flop to find out where we stand, is not a reason to raise the flop.

The only bad bit is the spew at the end.
 
The Messiah

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Well.. it isnt. Pre is good. Raising the flop to find out where we stand, is not a reason to raise the flop.

The only bad bit is the spew at the end.

How do you know if pre is good?
Anyway, I wasnt referring to his pre action as we dont have any info on villain, nor you can, as you have no stats to go by....

Ahh, yes it is especially when we dont do it pre, were in pos, have a draw to the nuts.

I know youve heard the saying, "why raise when you dont get called by better" or "raising to find out were we are is bad", well thats not always the case and a hand like this is one of those occasions were in fact its good to do.
 
JCgrind

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messiah, not sure if typo or not but its tilting me really hard so i have to point it out....

if ducky raises the flop its not a 3b its a raise. if villain bets, ducky raises and then villain raises again thats a 3bet. when you raise someones open pre its called a 3b because the BB counts as the initial bet.

i also strongly disagree with raising the flop. all hands that beat you are jamming and all that you beat are folding- so all a raise achieves is preventing us from seeing a turn card when we need one.

i think turn is a fold simply because were never going to get paid when we hit our open ender

as a side note, as played im probably folding the river since a lot of the time his bet will be a busted straight draw, but since weve got 2 got damn jacks it just looks like thin value with AA/KK or a T to me. if we had like AT or something im calling and taking a note on how he played his nuts or air
 
The Messiah

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messiah, not sure if typo or not but its tilting me really hard so i have to point it out....

if ducky raises the flop its not a 3b its a raise. if villain bets, ducky raises and then villain raises again thats a 3bet. when you raise someones open pre its called a 3b because the BB counts as the initial bet.

i also strongly disagree with raising the flop. all hands that beat you are jamming and all that you beat are folding- so all a raise achieves is preventing us from seeing a turn card when we need one.

i think turn is a fold simply because were never going to get paid when we hit our open ender

Yah w/e:p

Completely disagree though, ive said why raising is optimal, going to take some 'serious comment' to change my mind.
 
JCgrind

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define a decent 20/15's UTG range, then tell me what hands fold to a 3b and which ones dont.

this board is retarded to Cbet if you missed and im sure a decent 50NL reg would know that, so i assume villain almost always has a hand here.

if were ahead and hes pure bluffing or semiing with like AK, he like has to have AK/AJ in which case he has 3 outs only and so we dgaf about him turning/rivering us. if hes ahead (as he should be so much of the time since he Cbet and his range is uber strong) were getting jammed on.

imo, best case scenario for us is that he has AA or AQ, and when he calls our flop raise and check/calls turn, we might get a fold shipping the river.... might.
 
The Messiah

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define a decent 20/15's UTG range, then tell me what hands fold to a 3b and which ones dont.

this board is retarded to Cbet if you missed and im sure a decent 50NL reg would know that, so i assume villain almost always has a hand here.

if were ahead and hes pure bluffing or semiing with like AK, he like has to have AK/AJ in which case he has 3 outs only and so we dgaf about him turning/rivering us. if hes ahead (as he should be so much of the time since he Cbet and his range is uber strong) were getting jammed on.

imo, best case scenario for us is that he has AA or AQ, and when he calls our flop raise and check/calls turn, we might get a fold shipping the river.... might.

I need to know his fold/3bet, and his utg range, then its easy...Bare in mind he has 70 hands on villain, which isnt at all converged.

Im not rasing flop for value but as a semi bluff and one of the reasons why im doing it is because of our action pre, but as far as i know, pre could be good, need stats....

Yes he obv has a hand but so do we, and a good one at that.
By raising we keep all overpairs in check, in which we have great equity against,
also his strong hands as ive said before will be 3 betting flop making it an easy fold,
by finding out were we are on flop we potentially save money as we dont go chasing our draws/s/d value hand.
We need to take initiative in the hand if were even remotely going to turn our hand into a bluff and by doing so on the flop its a good way to start. As youve said yourself villain rarely has a bluff when c-betting this board.We need to think further down the line/hand then just what is happening on each street, thus the lol b/c,b/c,b/shove line.
Which is spew imo

Why would we bet turn when we have showdown value/draw to the nuts, theres no need for turning our hand into a bluff by betting turn/shipping river.
We have pos, and im checking back turn 100% of the time.
Turning a hand with this much equity into a bluff is bad especially when villain aint going nowhere on that particular street with his obv big hand. So bloating the pot is unnecessary/bad.
 
youregoodmate

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I need to know his fold/3bet, and his utg range, then its easy...Bare in mind he has 70 hands on villain, which isnt at all converged.

Im not rasing flop for value but as a semi bluff

Didnt read it all but here we go.

No you dont need to know his f3b stat. His opening range will be strong and will only get stronger as he folds out worse hands.

How can you semi ''bluff'' the flop when it is obvious he will at least call, but almost always 3 bet. You have no FE here. If you think duckys bluff is so bad then this flop bluff is equally so.

Good luck to you when you end up all in on the flop.. and behind.
 
youregoodmate

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We need to take initiative in the hand if were even remotely going to turn our hand into a bluff and by doing so on the flop its a good way to start.

Why are we turning middle pair and an open ender into a double/triple barrel bluff on the flop?
 
youregoodmate

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Turning a hand with this much equity into a bluff is bad especially when villain aint going nowhere on that particular street with his obv big hand. So bloating the pot is unnecessary/bad.

Sorry to keep quoting but you just summed up our point for us.
 
The Messiah

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Lesson learned then, read whole post in future..

Your quoting the wrong person, im not in favour of barreling off later streets when checked to, it was jc who said something in reference to that.

We semi bluff the flop to get to showdown cheaply if hes got 2pair/overpair as we are in pos, and are checking back turns, we also have great equity.
If he 3 bets then its an easy fold, I never mentioned about getting our money in with '2nd pair'/ straight draw with ~145bbs deep in which he prob has blockers to some of the time..
You need to read my posts more carefully.

If we go for the c/c route then he can bet all his overpairs/2pairs on later streets, putting us in shit spots as we dont know were we are.So actually by raising as a bluff its more ev than c/c..

I cant keep posting the same thing over and over so you either get it or you dont.
 
JCgrind

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oh i wasnt at all for triple barrelling off, mustve misunderstood my post. all good. if i flat pre i call flop fold turn

if trying to get to SD cheap is your goal, i much prefer calling flop, minraising turn regardless of whether it bricks or makes our hand. if we raise his flop bet and by some miracle he only calls, turn is;
1. blank: and so it goes check/check, were obv playing a jack (villain would assume bare J (AJ or something im sure) and were left in a gross spot when he barrels river with 100% of his range (hes aggro remember and thats such an obv river barrel)
2. we bink the OESD : and villain check/folds ALL of his range, since he cant have anything strong like top set that just doesnt wanna fold since hes obv 3bing the flop with those.

whereas if we raise the turn on a brick, he has to play face up and we fold out a fair few hands that beat us. if we make it raise is obv for value.

not to mention, well have a ton more info by what he does on the turn (ie barrels the 7ball, and we can make a cozy fold and still sleep ez)
 
hackmeplz

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The issue is if he's good he'll realize that you'd raise flop with almost anything you're shoving river for value with, and if he's bad he'll just be like lol I have trips+ I call. There are probably a few player types this would be ok against but I don't trust a 50nl reg with a 14% 3b to be the type to make hero folds in a spot where you can't really have any value hands and have a lot of hands (relatively anyway) to turn into a bluff (pretty much any Jx you flat pre with other than QJ, maybe a few combos of xc xc flop floats).

Pre/flop/turn all standard and I think doing anything other than what you did would be a significant leak.

Also info on BB would be pertinent as well it matters a lot if he's a nit, lag, fish, or something else as it changes both villain's flop betting range and your perceived flop calling range.
 
acky100

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always think about the story your trying to tell young duckster, here you probably dont even have many KJ combos which might be the only legit hand you could sometimes play the same. villains bet sizing is horrible. What do you do on the river with AQ yourself?
 
Ducky7

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No way you can rep a boat here surely? A set/2pair raises the flop and obv 77 cant float. So you're repping Qx here and im not sure anything but AQ shoves the river.

Good point
 
Ducky7

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this looks too much like a bare jack to me, but the again i love the herocallz. i snap you off with any ten or better here. obviously youre super polarised, and i think that your range is way more skewed to a bluff here since like YGM said, theres no way youre flatting big hands on that flop and turn, unless its KJ- in which case you dont jam over the top on the river IMO. if you hadve called pre in MP then this works. OTB though i think youre getting called every day.

Ye fair enough, figured i had SDV till the river and just had in my mind he should fold everything so didnt think it through properly.
 
youregoodmate

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The whole point of a semi bluff is because you have fold equity. His range is so strong we rarely do here. So basically by raising you are inflating the pot with the worst hand, hoping to suck out.

Haha Messiah has made a good job of turning the attention away from your spew.
 
Ducky7

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Whats his fold/3bet stat?
Whats your 3 bet stat?
lol at you saying you played solid for 14 hands, seriously..?

Knowing the above will decide on whether id 3 bet for value or just flat and keep his dominated range in this hand were we have pos, but regardless we dont have enough hands on villain so its not going to be a merged sample so I just 3 bet pre.

As played, you play the hand extremely passively, 3 bet on the flop to find out were we stand as its an easy 3bet/fold spot, hes going to 4 bet all his sets as its an extremely draw heavy board and he doesnt want a 4 card straight board to hit the turn, he will also 4 bet the nuts as you only do this with 2pair(prebably not)/sets/nuts/bluffs, which he will just go and click it back. As the nuts on the flop gets killed by the sets that you have in your range If he flats because you will just give up on turns that do make a 4 card straight board. So instead of coolering you on the flop hes losing loads of value by not 4 betting the flop with the nuts/sets that he has. Hence as said its an easy 3bet/flod spot.

If he flats then we can check back most turns and evaluate river, we can still draw to the nuts as well, and were also getting a s/d value hand to the river for cheap in pos which is great.

As regards your line/bluff, well its simple horrible..
This screams to me like an inducing bet from your AQ that he prob puts you on, as he prob expects you to 3 bet river with it. As calling would be weak(but isnt).

He has boats/straights in his range here so so often that you risking $56.50 when you have only $13 invested in the pot is just total spew. There isnt enough money in the pot for you to jam here either as the % of times that hes going to snap you off totally outweighs the times you get folds. You have a lot of FE but in a situation like this its not good to use it in such a spot were its the 'nuts' 85%+ of the time.

3b is 14% and f3b is 100% (3/3) and ye ino i only played 14 hands but give all the info you have right :rolleyes:

And raising the flop to find out where we are is surely terrible because it allows him to 3b the flop with a bunch of hands and we fold what could be the best hand.
 
Ducky7

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i think turn is a fold simply because were never going to get paid when we hit our open ender

I thought the same but figured there are a load of river cards we can take it away with, and at this point i now figured i was well behind
 
Ducky7

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always think about the story your trying to tell young duckster, here you probably dont even have many KJ combos which might be the only legit hand you could sometimes play the same. villains bet sizing is horrible. What do you do on the river with AQ yourself?

I know, i let this one slip, didnt think it through because i only decided to bluff the river based on his bet and the card that came out,

With AQ probs nit it up and call lol
 
acky100

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I know, i let this one slip, didnt think it through because i only decided to bluff the river based on his bet and the card that came out,

With AQ probs nit it up and call lol

I think that's probably wise.
 
The Messiah

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JCgrind;1979200[B said:
]oh i wasnt at all for triple barrelling off, mustve misunderstood my post.[/B] all good. if i flat pre i call flop fold turn

imo, best case scenario for us is that he has AA or AQ, and when he calls our flop raise and check/calls turn, we might get a fold shipping the river.... might.

Well I just put 2 and 2 together, and said you made a reference to it, which you do, thats all....lol

if trying to get to SD cheap is your goal, i much prefer calling flop, minraising turn regardless of whether it bricks or makes our hand. if we raise his flop bet and by some miracle he only calls, turn is;
1. blank: and so it goes check/check, were obv playing a jack (villain would assume bare J (AJ or something im sure) and were left in a gross spot when he barrels river with 100% of his range (hes aggro remember and thats such an obv river barrel)
2. we bink the OESD : and villain check/folds ALL of his range, since he cant have anything strong like top set that just doesnt wanna fold since hes obv 3bing the flop with those.

whereas if we raise the turn on a brick, he has to play face up and we fold out a fair few hands that beat us. if we make it raise is obv for value.

not to mention, well have a ton more info by what he does on the turn (ie barrels the 7ball, and we can make a cozy fold and still sleep ez)

So if we min raise turn and not raise flop we get to showdown cheaper? I dont think so!!

Raising flop outweighs raising turn if we want to get to s/d cheaper.

Lets say we raise flop to $8,
He 3 bets- easy fold.
He flats- whether we make our straight our not on turn, the turn will go c/c..Or at least it should as we are being perceived weak(which will give him a chance to bluff rivers as youve said hes agg, but in fact hes prob only agg pre) and also the amount of times villain will have KJ we can just call river bets, (minimizing our losses with the worse straight.)

Now if we call flop and min raise turn as youve suggested, we raise turn to $15..
If he 3 bets- we have to fold.
If he flats- the river will go c/c by all his 2 pair hands that we now beat.
But he will donk if not 3 bet the turn will all his houses and presuming trips(on river,which would be an easy b/f situation), in which we all fold to.

So by raising flop we 'lose' $8,
by raising turn we 'lose' $18.50
As played we 'lose' $11, if we dont count the spew shove and just c/c,fold rivers...

So unless you dont like money, then raising flop to get to showdown, is cheaper than raising turn...


The issue is if he's good he'll realize that you'd raise flop with almost anything you're shoving river for value with, and if he's bad he'll just be like lol I have trips+ I call. There are probably a few player types this would be ok against but I don't trust a 50nl reg with a 14% 3b to be the type to make hero folds in a spot where you can't really have any value hands and have a lot of hands (relatively anyway) to turn into a bluff (pretty much any Jx you flat pre with other than QJ, maybe a few combos of xc xc flop floats).


Pre/flop/turn all standard and I think doing anything other than what you did would be a significant leak.


Also info on BB would be pertinent as well it matters a lot if he's a nit, lag, fish, or something else as it changes both villain's flop betting range and your perceived flop calling range.

Explain how doing anything other than calling both flop/turn is a significant leak??


The whole point of a semi bluff is because you have fold equity. His range is so strong we rarely do here. So basically by raising you are inflating the pot with the worst hand, hoping to suck out.

Haha Messiah has made a good job of turning the attention away from your spew.

Just read my posts again, ive discussed this matter a few times now already..

I hope not, our else he will find himself in similar situations in the future which is not the purpose of posting HHs.


3b is 14% and f3b is 100% (3/3) and ye ino i only played 14 hands but give all the info you have right :rolleyes:

And raising the flop to find out where we are is surely terrible because it allows him to 3b the flop with a bunch of hands and we fold what could be the best hand.

Flatting pre is ok so, but still a 3bet isnt the worst play either..

It was just the 'tone' in your post when you said you should never have bluffs in your range on the river because ive played solid for 14 hands while at the table, which made me lol, thats all...

I think youll find that raising the flop from what ive said already is far from terrible.
Also theres not many if none that are 3 betting this flop with worse than JJ, unless you can think of any?


Tbh, there seems to be a lot of nooby posts being said by somewhat respected players, which I find it hard to understand... But maybe its just me, but I doubt it..
 
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