Originally Posted by JCgrind;1979200[B
]oh i wasnt at all for triple barrelling off, mustve misunderstood my post.[/B] all good. if i flat pre i call flop fold turn
Originally Posted by JCgrind
imo, best case scenario for us is that he has AA or AQ, and when he calls our flop raise and check/calls turn, we might get a fold shipping the river.... might.
Well I just put 2 and 2 together, and said you made a reference to it, which you do, thats all....lol
Originally Posted by JCgrind
if trying to get to SD cheap is your goal, i much prefer calling flop, minraising turn regardless of whether it bricks or makes our hand. if we raise his flop bet and by some miracle he only calls, turn is;
1. blank: and so it goes check/check, were obv playing a jack (villain would assume bare J (AJ or something im sure) and were left in a gross spot when he barrels river with 100% of his range (hes aggro remember and thats such an obv river barrel)
2. we bink the OESD : and villain check/folds ALL of his range, since he cant have anything strong like top set that just doesnt wanna fold since hes obv 3bing the flop with those.
whereas if we raise the turn on a brick, he has to play face up and we fold out a fair few hands that beat us. if we make it raise is obv for value.
not to mention, well have a ton more info by what he does on the turn (ie barrels the 7ball, and we can make a cozy fold and still sleep ez)
So if we min raise turn and not raise flop we get to showdown cheaper? I dont think so!!
Raising flop outweighs raising turn if we want to get to s/d cheaper.
Lets say we raise flop to $8,
He 3 bets- easy fold.
He flats- whether we make our straight our not on turn, the turn will go c/c..Or at least it should as we are being perceived weak(which will give him a chance to bluff rivers as youve said hes agg, but in fact hes prob only agg pre) and also the amount of times villain will have KJ we can just call river bets, (minimizing our losses with the worse straight.)
Now if we call flop and min raise turn as youve suggested, we raise turn to $15..
If he 3 bets- we have to fold.
If he flats- the river will go c/c by all his 2 pair hands that we now beat.
But he will donk if not 3 bet the turn will all his houses and presuming trips(on river,which would be an easy b/f situation), in which we all fold to.
So by raising flop we 'lose' $8,
by raising turn we 'lose' $18.50
As played we 'lose' $11, if we dont count the spew shove and just c/c,fold rivers...
So unless you dont like money, then raising flop to get to showdown, is cheaper than raising turn...
Originally Posted by hackmeplz
The issue is if he's good he'll realize that you'd raise flop with almost anything you're shoving river for value with, and if he's bad he'll just be like lol I have trips+ I call. There are probably a few player types this would be ok against but I don't trust a 50nl reg with a 14% 3b to be the type to make hero folds in a spot where you can't really have any value hands and have a lot of hands (relatively anyway) to turn into a bluff (pretty much any Jx you flat pre with other than QJ, maybe a few combos of xc xc flop floats).
Pre/flop/turn all standard and I think doing anything other than what you did would be a significant leak.
Also info on BB would be pertinent as well it matters a lot if he's a nit, lag, fish, or something else as it changes both villain's flop betting range and your perceived flop calling range.
Explain how doing anything other than calling both flop/turn is a significant leak??
Originally Posted by youregoodmate
The whole point of a semi bluff is because you have fold equity. His range is so strong we rarely do here. So basically by raising you are inflating the pot with the worst hand, hoping to suck out.
Haha Messiah has made a good job of turning the attention away from your spew.
Just read my posts again, ive discussed this matter a few times now already..
I hope not, our else he will find himself in similar situations in the future which is not the purpose of posting HHs.
Originally Posted by Ducky7
3b is 14% and f3b is 100% (3/3) and ye ino i only played 14 hands but give all the info you have right
And raising the flop to find out where we are is surely terrible because it allows him to 3b the flop with a bunch of hands and we fold what could be the best hand.
Flatting pre is ok so, but still a 3bet isnt the worst play either..
It was just the 'tone' in your post when you said you should never have bluffs in your range on the river because ive played solid for 14 hands while at the table, which made me lol, thats all...
I think youll find that raising the flop from what ive said already is far from terrible.
Also theres not many if none that are 3 betting this flop with worse than JJ, unless you can think of any?
Tbh, there seems to be a lot of nooby posts being said by somewhat respected players, which I find it hard to understand... But maybe its just me, but I doubt it..