$50 NL KK vs TAG reraise, interesting flop

Tygran

Tygran

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Villain is pretty TAG at 14/5/2

pokerstars Game #14922442794: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/01/29 - 21:45:29 (ET)
Table 'Bethgea II' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: adamski99 ($8.20 in chips)
Seat 2: SomeChaos ($88.95 in chips)
Seat 3: CYWM ($77.65 in chips)
Seat 4: oneluckymug ($48.20 in chips)
Seat 5: bshopz ($10.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Inesiite ($50 in chips)
Seat 7: AG FISH ($41.75 in chips)
Seat 8: POKR925 ($30 in chips)
Seat 9: Tygran37 ($48.25 in chips)
oneluckymug: posts small blind $0.25
bshopz: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Tygran37 [Ks Kd]
Inesiite: folds
AG FISH: folds
POKR925: folds
Tygran37: raises $1.25 to $1.75
adamski99: folds
SomeChaos: folds
CYWM: raises $2.25 to $4
oneluckymug: folds
bshopz: folds
Tygran37: calls $2.25
*** FLOP *** [2s Ac As]
Tygran37: ???
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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As played it's basically wa/wb to 22,Ax/QQ,JJ,TT etc. I'm not sure he shows up here with a flush draw very often since the As is out there and he most likely won't 3-bet with QKs and smaller suited connectors.

I like a reraise pf but calling is ok too since a tag like that won't often stack with worse than queens. But ya, as played I ch-c the flop, and usually give up if he puts in a strong second barrel since he won't be doing that very often without an ace.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I like Chuck's analysis.

But what do you do if he checks the flop, do we bet the turn? And if not, the what if he then bets the turn? Assume the pot will stay small enough that we can continue to call down, or that there's enough of a chance that he's bluffing or has QQ/JJ that it's worthwhile to call down at that point?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Check-call flop. You hold the Ks so the flush draw chance here is almost zero. If he checks behind I'd check again on the turn (to induce a bet from a hand we beat) and call reasonable bets on both the turn and river. If he bets on the flop, I call but unless we hit the miracle on the turn I'm done if he bets again.
 
ChuckTs

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But what do you do if he checks the flop, do we bet the turn? And if not, the what if he then bets the turn? Assume the pot will stay small enough that we can continue to call down, or that there's enough of a chance that he's bluffing or has QQ/JJ that it's worthwhile to call down at that point?

Basically this, imo:

Check-call flop. You hold the Ks so the flush draw chance here is almost zero. If he checks behind I'd check again on the turn (to induce a bet from a hand we beat) and call reasonable bets on both the turn and river. If he bets on the flop, I call but unless we hit the miracle on the turn I'm done if he bets again.

I'm not sure I call a double barrel on turn/riv if villain checks behind the flop (that would look too much like AK/AA to me) but I'd consider it. But ya, basicaly what WV said.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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The aces on the flop and the fact I'm holding kings certainly don't eliminate any holdings but they make AA/KK much less likely and AK slightly less likely.

Yeah this is a wa/wb scenario although we could potentially be tied (both with KK..which could get really interesting).


Good analysis so far. I took a bit more aggressive line and I did it for a couple of reasons. First off his range is very small here... QQ/KK/AA/AK I think..little else. I also agree that there is no worry of a flush.

With him reraising me preflop I don't care what he has if he's checked too he's going to cbet it most of the time. I didn't feel that a ch-call line would really tell me anything since he will bet out with any of his holdings and if I am beat he's going to try and milk me on the next 2 streets.

So I check raised him. I wanted to know right now where I stood. I checked, he bet out $6, I raised it to $14 and he folded. I expected QQ and quite possibly KK to fold to this play and any A is probably reraising and definitely calling. If he did anything but fold I was going to be very very cautious the rest of the hand..most likely just giving it up to any more aggression.


Good line to take? Bad? Why?
 
ChuckTs

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Ack, hate it tbh.

This is going back to the wa/wb thread where everyone disagreed with the poster and said 'we don't know where we stand'. It's more of a scared play to bet (or ch-r here) as if you're not confident enough to play it the other way.

What worse hands call us here? What better hands do we fold?

The information we gain is much less valuable than the EV we gain by playing it soft by inviting those worse pairs in and saving money vs those aces. It's actually going to be very easy to tell which is which against this player too since he's such a straight-forward tag.

But ya, as played we simply scare off worse hands and give money to better hands. The only upside to your play is that it possibly scares off KK, but that's a) very improbable that he holds it, and b) still doesn't give us enough value to make up for the EV we lose by folding out queens and giving money to Ax.
 
B

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I like your smooth call preflop very deceptive, he won't put you on a big pair now. So he either has QQ - 10 10 or A Q. AA and KK are extremely unlikely since we know two of each are already used. AK is also extremely unlikely since again 2 aces and 2 kings are already used up. So that leaves only QQ JJ 10 10 or AQ. We are beating 3 hands and losing to 1. So our goal in this hand is to lose the minimum if he does have AQ and try to not fold our hand if he does have 10 10 - QQ. We are afraid of him having an ace but if he does have 10 10 - QQ he'll be just as afraid that we have an ace. So I think it's best to check call, do the same on the turn. And if he makes a big bet on the river think about folding since he probably has AQ.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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c/r is awful. if he calls or raises, congrats, you bloated the pot unnecessarily while behind. if he folds, you had him crushed and lost value. therein lies the problem of raising solely "to find out where you're out". the price of the "information" is not worth the value you give up

I expected QQ and quite possibly KK to fold to this play and any A is probably reraising and definitely calling.

surely you've got to understand why this is horrible??! you're making a raise that you only expect to be called when behind? that's called bluffing. you're turning your hand into a bluff and sucking it of all value
 
Tygran

Tygran

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But ya, as played we simply scare off worse hands and give money to better hands. The only upside to your play is that it possibly scares off KK, but that's a) very improbable that he holds it, and b) still doesn't give us enough value to make up for the EV we lose by folding out queens and giving money to Ax.

c/r is awful. if he calls or raises, congrats, you bloated the pot unnecessarily while behind. if he folds, you had him crushed and lost value. therein lies the problem of raising solely "to find out where you're out". the price of the "information" is not worth the value you give up

Yeah.. I don't have much to add. I figured this one would get chewed up.
I've been trying to analyze yesterday's session this afternoon and overall I just played terrible. I'm still trying to figure out why... I think I wasn't physically feeling great and that I let it affect me mentally more than I thought it was.

I may post another couple hands in a bit. I've done well so far at the tables but I'm definitely still learning.


surely you've got to understand why this is horrible??! you're making a raise that you only expect to be called when behind? that's called bluffing. you're turning your hand into a bluff and sucking it of all value

Yeah I deserve this.
 
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