[50 NL] AT suited

This is the first time I am doing this so bare with me.

Villian is unknown, he just sat down at the table a few hands before.

Table 'Martir' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: Hero ($54.60 in chips)
Seat 3: Villian ($52.75 in chips)
Seat 4: Player 4 ($73.15 in chips)
Seat 5: Player 5 ($13.90 in chips)
Player 4: posts small blind $0.25
Player 5: posts big blind $0.50

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ah Th]
Hero: raises $1.50 to $2
Villian: calls $2
Player 4: folds
Player 5: folds

*** FLOP *** [Tc Jh Qh]
Hero: bets $3
Villian: raises $9 to $12

I am wondering what the correct move is here.

the correct move here...is to kys.

easy fold. i would have checked the flop and folded to a bet unless he gives me a good price to see the turn. since there are 2 over cards on the board, and he called your preflop raise, you have to put him on one of those two overcards, probably the Q, he could possibly be holding AK. either way, i feel you are way behind, and he's not giving you very good odds, 2:1, to chase your straight.

i'm still learning cash games, but this is how i would have played post flop.

chiefer77 said:

easy fold. i would have checked the flop and folded to a bet unless he gives me a good price to see the turn. since there are 2 over cards on the board, and he called your preflop raise, you have to put him on one of those two overcards, probably the Q, he could possibly be holding AK. either way, i feel you are way behind, and he's not giving you very good odds, 2:1, to chase your straight.

i'm still learning cash games, but this is how i would have played post flop.

Click to expand...

LOL...you have over 1,000 posts and yet you're still this retarded? Are you serious boss? "to chase your straight"? LOL................ if i had this hand...he's obviously in there for the FLUSH draw...the underpair and straight draw are just EXTRA back up.....for $9 more bux i'd definetly look this guy up, and if you wanna get aggressive i'd push it to the house and go all in...

forgive my earlier statement about you being a complete moron chiefer, i just noticed that you play on fulltilt poker, you cant help how bad you are.

GamblersLogic said:

LOL...you have over 1,000 posts and yet you're still this retarded? Are you serious boss? "to chase your straight"? LOL................ if i had this hand...he's obviously in there for the FLUSH draw...the underpair and straight draw are just EXTRA back up.....for $9 more bux i'd definetly look this guy up, and if you wanna get aggressive i'd push it to the house and go all in...

forgive my earlier statement about you being a complete moron chiefer, i just noticed that you play on fulltilt poker, you cant help how bad you are.

Click to expand...

well, as i stated, i am still learning cash games. i read the HH too quickly i guess, i didn't see the flush draw. i primarily focus on MTT and STT. so forgive me for my ignorance. i was simply stating how i would play the hand. never once did i say it was the correct way to play it. either way 2:1 is not good odds to chase anything.

with four posts, and two of them spam, you must be the foremost expert. i'm so glad you joined here, i'm sure we will learn so much from you. end sarcasm.

Looks like villian has QJ+ and is betting to force out the draws. You are almost even money to win. I'd call and see what the turn brings.

I don't think you can fold this hand, at least not here.

If he had an AK, QQ, or JJ he probably would have raised before the flop. You have to assume that he has a a couple of hearts, Qx, QJ, QT, or Kx, and hopefully not a K9.

I think I would call the $9 and wait for the turn. If the turn does not make the hand and if it's not a scare card (AQJT9), I'd probably push. If he doesn't have a made hand, he'll have to fold.

The only problem with just calling the flop bet is if he shuts down to a scare card on the turn (another heart, 4 to straight). I think I like this hand well enough here that I reraise all-in.

This is a shove or fold hand. The real trick is we need to determine if all of our outs are clean. We cannot simply call, because if another flush card or straight card comes, we will not get paid off by 2 pair. So we have no implied odds. We need to use our outs to semibluff with while we have some fold equity left.

You're drawing to the nut straight, and the nut flush, so those outs are golden. If he has QJ you're also drawing to a high two pair or trips. Here's our equity in the pot:

vs. QJ, JT, or QT = 51% to win by the river
vs. 89, K9 = ~46% to win by the river
vs. AK = ~38% to win by the river
vs. TT+ = ~36% to win by the river

So the two worst case scenarios (AK and TT+) would probably re-raise preflop. Thus, we're at least about 40% to win this hand by the river. With the dead money already in there, this is an easy shove.

/me votes for going ARRRR IN!!!!

After a few more responses, I'll post what I did and how the hand turned out.

I just can't quite bring myself to suggest folding this. Even knowing it could spell DOOM!

I also can't quite bring myself to suggesting attacking this hand, but that would probably be the best move.

I can say that at minimum I'm gonna see another card.


And as far as bearing with you on a first attempt to post a HH? You did it perfectly correct.

Edit add;

I think a lot of the responses here might be from players who are more comfortable playing tourney's, and this hand might show some key differences between tourney play and cash game play. I'm primarily a tourney player, and thus my reticence to shove here. In tourney play, it is often less important to have a read on a player. ALways helpful mind you, but often it is harder to get a read when tables are changing fast.

In ring games a fresh face at a table, for me, sends up a caution flag. Not a surrender flag, but with no clue, I don't want to be getting overly optimistic about how great I am and how fishy the new guy smells.

This could easily be a death hand in a tourney, and a $52.75 (plus dead money) hand here. C9's odds are a nice addition and might move me to gamble with this hand, but then, part of profitable poker is not only winning the gambles but knowing when NOT to gamble.

I'll stick with my original response and just call here.

dj11 said:

I think a lot of the responses here might be from players who are more comfortable playing tourney's, and this hand might show some key differences between tourney play and cash game play. I'm primarily a tourney player, and thus my reticence to shove here. In tourney play, it is often less important to have a read on a player. ALways helpful mind you, but often it is harder to get a read when tables are changing fast.

In ring games a fresh face at a table, for me, sends up a caution flag. Not a surrender flag, but with no clue, I don't want to be getting overly optimistic about how great I am and how fishy the new guy smells.

This could easily be a death hand in a tourney, and a $52.75 (plus dead money) hand here. C9's odds are a nice addition and might move me to gamble with this hand, but then, part of profitable poker is not only winning the gambles but knowing when NOT to gamble.

I'll stick with my original response and just call here.

Click to expand...

good post DJ, it's the very reason i posted in this thread. i'm still learning to play cash games. this thread has already helped me change my initial decision and understand why i would or should call the raise.

Edited to allow more time for people to post.

witht the jack on the turn, i'm dumping this. i was thinking full boat earlier. and DJ had it right, A10 could spell disaster.

chiefer77 said:

witht the jack on the turn, i'm dumping this. i was thinking full boat earlier. and DJ had it right, A10 could spell disaster.

Click to expand...

There is no way we should dump this on the turn. We've invested $37 of ~$50 at that point. Investing that much of our stack and then folding is almost always a mistake. That's why our reraise on the flop should have been all-in because anything else commits us anyway (end result would have been the same here but that doesn't matter) and we get the most fold equity by shoving.

To the OP: It's probably best to wait a little longer before posting the results to allow for those with a life (I have no such shortcomings) to respond.

Using a calculator:
If he has Q/J, you are 54% to win and he's 44%.
If he has A/Q, you are 42% to win and he's 47%.
If he has A/K, you are 39% to win and he's 54%.
If he has a set, you are 37% to win and he's 61%.

I don't see a shove here chasing him off anything except for maybe A/Q, so an all-in semi-bluff is bad news as there just isn't enough fold equity.

I'd call and try to keep it cheap. Should you hit your straight or flush I think the implied odds will make up for your initial disadvantage.

Edit: Whoop... just noticed that you posted the results. I didn't even consider having him on J/T. But they were suited so it was a fine call on his part.
My way woulda saved you money once you saw that horrendous flop. Nya nya!

Actually we're a favorite to win against J10 (about 52%) after the flop so getting all-in is still the right play. Nya nya!

I'd have to say call. You've already invested 5 bucks in the pot, and its 9 more. You are essentially getting huge implied pot odds, as you know if you hit the straight/flush you have the nuts and he's probably calling to the end. If you miss it, you still have your 10s or can fold.

Folding is a big mistake, so you can either call here or shove, I think either is OK. Remember this is a cash game so if we can get all when we're 50% to win or a little under 50% it's not a disaster. Early in a tournament with small blinds and deep stacks you might want to fold here since survival is so important.

Anyway you have 13 outs that will give you the nuts. But then you have possibly 5 more outs for two pair or trips, but this is where it gets tricky because we don't know for sure if we only have 13 outs total or 18. We might make two pair on the turn but he makes a straight at the same time. So in these situations you should reduce the number of outs, I'd say instead of 5 more outs (for twopair or trips) we have 2 more outs, so that is a total of 15 outs. Odds against hitting one of those outs on the turn is just about 2:1, and you're pot odds are 2:1 so it's a fair bet.

Or you could shove here. With 15 outs if you get to see the turn and river you're a little over 50% to win.

easy shove. all the people saying call are making me sigh all over the place

calling is pretty awful unless maybe your opponent is completely braindead. crap, even then calling is most likely bad. you pretty much cut your odds in half almost forcing yourself to hit on the turn (his large raise suggests he's not going to give you odds on the turn). and the bulk of your outs are incredibly obvious and it's going to be hard to get paid off on them esp out of position

WVHillbilly said:

Actually we're a favorite to win against J10 (about 52%) after the flop so getting all-in is still the right play. Nya nya!

Click to expand...

Uh... I knew that. Just... uh... I was figuring that poker is rigged. Yeah... that's it.


Or... I found a better way to correct my oversight. Being a 2% favorite doesn't cover what you'd lose to the rake. So you're actually going to lose money over time. (The Great and Powerful Oz commands that you disregard the fact that you already have a significantly larger percentage of chips in the pot which more than compensates for the rake penalty.)

SHOVE!!!

Monster draw (equity) + good fold equity + villain's possible bluffing here = easy easy shove. This is *just* weaker than like an open-ended straight flush draw.

AK/AQ/sets are tiny parts of his range unless he's an absolute rock.

What Chuck said + we are shorthanded, so we are seeing weaker hands playing back more often.

WVHillbilly said:

There is no way we should dump this on the turn. We've invested $37 of ~$50 at that point. Investing that much of our stack and then folding is almost always a mistake. That's why our reraise on the flop should have been all-in because anything else commits us anyway (end result would have been the same here but that doesn't matter) and we get the most fold equity by shoving.

To the OP: It's probably best to wait a little longer before posting the results to allow for those with a life (I have no such shortcomings) to respond.

Click to expand...

how do you figure we've invested $37? preflop $2, flop$3, if he calls the flop rereraise, another $9. i get $14.

chiefer77 said:

how do you figure we've invested $37? preflop $2, flop$3, if he calls the flop rereraise, another $9. i get $14.

Click to expand...

We've invested $37, because we reraised the flop to $35.

Yes, I know x.UnLuCkY.x edited the results out but that's what your earlier "fold on the turn when the J hits" and my "no way we fold this turn" posts were based on.