$5 NLHE6-max: AQ Suited 3-betting from the BB against a TAG

T

TorreyB

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 18/18/4

I'm curious as to others opinion on how they would have played this hand had they decided to 3-bet like I did?

During the flop I felt the numbers would be strong for me to play this aggressively and get the money in if need be.

poker stars $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
UTG: $6.99
CO: $5.05
BTN: $14.27
SB: $4.61
Hero (BB): $5.00
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BB with Q
club.gif
A
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1 fold, CO raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.55, CO calls $0.40
Flop: ($1.12) A
heart.gif
7
club.gif
J
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(2 players)
Hero bets $1, CO raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $4.45 all in, CO calls $1.95
Turn: ($10.02) 2
spade.gif
(2 players - 1 is all in)
River: ($10.02) 6
spade.gif
(2 players - 1 is all in)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I flat pre and get all the $$s in on the flop if possible.
 
PNJs_dad

PNJs_dad

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I don't see a problem with your play. Only problem is the flush didn't hit.
 
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baudib1

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It puts more money in the pot when we're ahead of CO's range.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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It puts more money in the pot when we're ahead of CO's range.

We're certainly ahead of his opening range but are we ever ahead of his continuation range? I don't see too many villains calling 3bets with worse than AQ.
 
wrung24

wrung24

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We're certainly ahead of his opening range but are we ever ahead of his continuation range? I don't see too many villains calling 3bets with worse than AQ.

So I get the fact that we should be flatting on the BB like that (unless if OP's idea was to take it down right there). But as played why would you try to get all the $$$ in the middle if in your opinion we're behind his continuation range ? Especially after he raises on the flop, surely we're not semi-bluffing here ?

Care to elaborate ? Don't worry I'll get it eventually.
 
J

JMcCabe

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You're getting it in because of the equity of your hand against his range.

You don't need to be ahead 50/50 for it to be correct to get the money in. You need to be ahead based on what the pot odds dictate.

There was $1.12 in preflop, you've put in $1, your opponent has put in $2.50, so there is $4.62 in the pot. You have $3.45 behind, so if you shove you're basically putting $3.45 in the middle to win a pot of $10.02. If your hand has more than 34.5% equity against your opponent's range, then the shove is +ev, even with no fold equity.
 
wrung24

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Yeah ok I think I get it now, thanks.

Still fairly marginal though
 
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baudib1

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1. If he's folding everything worse than AQs then we should be 3-bet bluffing a ton.
2. If we're 3-bet bluffing a ton we should put a few more value hands in our range or people will start to notice our 3-bet range is like 2% monsters and the rest is total trash.

Kind of reminds me of Daniel Negreanu on the recent week of The Big Game. His 3-betting range was total trash (87o, K9o, KJs) while he was flatting monsters in the blinds.

3. AQs probably plays better against his continuing range than 88-99.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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So I get the fact that we should be flatting on the BB like that (unless if OP's idea was to take it down right there). But as played why would you try to get all the $$$ in the middle if in your opinion we're behind his continuation range ? Especially after he raises on the flop, surely we're not semi-bluffing here ?

Care to elaborate ? Don't worry I'll get it eventually.

Against a reasonable range that calls a 3bet and then get's it in on this flop (let say AA/AK/AQs/AJs) we have 47% equity. As JMcCabe mentioned above we don't need to be a favorite to have more than enough equity to make shoving +EV. Even if we think his 3bet flatting range is only AK/AA, we have 43.5% equity and shoving is still profitable.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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People get so concerned about "oh noes, he never calls a 3-bet with anything we beat". Initiative is a powerful thing, and there's a reason we raise limpers with junk that's behind their limping range. Stop being so concerned about having 5% less preflop equity, yeesh.
 
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baudib1

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also if CO folds it's not like it's a bad thing. If he's raising with A3 and stacking TPNK then yeah we'd like to keep him in. If he has JTs keeping him in is fine, but it's not like he's drawing dead or even that far behind. When villains fold decent equity in position we win.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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People get so concerned about "oh noes, he never calls a 3-bet with anything we beat". Initiative is a powerful thing, and there's a reason we raise limpers with junk that's behind their limping range. Stop being so concerned about having 5% less preflop equity, yeesh.

5% equity???

His range (roughly top ~24%) if we flat:
Range
Hand 0: 59.527% { AQs }
Hand 1: 40.473% { 22+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

And even if he flats the 3bet with all pairs and AJ+ which would be really wide imo:
Hand 0: 46.820% { AQs }
Hand 1: 53.180% { 22+, AJs+, AJo+ }

Having the initiative OOP is never going to make up that kind of equity. Also if you're 3betting AQs here are you stacking if he 4bets?
 
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baudib1

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What about the profits we make when he folds? I think you are seriously underestimating the number of times villains will call with much worse hands

Folding to a 4-bet is totally fine and is more +EV than flatting against the top of their range, at 5 NL a 4-bet bluff with AK is as fancy as you're going to see.
 
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baudib1

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If you're not 3-betting AQs here what is your BB 3-bet range?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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What about the profits we make when he folds? I think you are seriously underestimating the number of times villains will call with much worse hands

Folding to a 4-bet is totally fine and is more +EV than flatting against the top of their range, at 5 NL a 4-bet bluff with AK is as fancy as you're going to see.
No. I know he folds a lot but why do you want him to?

If you're not 3-betting AQs here what is your BB 3-bet range?

JJ+/AK/87s - JTs something like that.
 
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baudib1

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When he folds and forfeits his 35-40% equity we win. A significant chunk of his folding range is going to be small pairs that we're behind.

In theory I understand that keeping him in the pot with AJ is a nice idea but in practice we're going to flop a dominating pair only 1/8th of the time, which is like flopping a set. That doesn't discount for the times when he has AJ and the flop is AJx or he has AThh and the flop is Axx with 2 hearts and he can bet/3b the flop and we're put in a bad spot.

Also if his continuing range includes 99-JJ he's not going to pay off when we flop top pair so we're only getting our money in preflop.

A ton of our equity vs. his CO range comes from the times when he has QJ or something and we're still ahead on the flop but he flops a SD or FD and he bets and we're forced to fold.

All of this depends on how often he's opening from CO and how often he folds; I can see an argument either way and I think mixing it up is fine too. You can argue that against a TAG who folds too much to 3-bets we should only be 3-betting air and small pairs and flatting JJ+/AK.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Listen I'm not saying 3betting hands like AQs or ATCs for that matter is a losing play. It's certainly +EV because he is going to be folding a ton of his opening range. I just don't think it's the most +EV way to play the hand. I flat lots out of the blinds though against wide ranges so maybe it's just me.
 
c9h13no3

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I flat lots out of the blinds though against wide ranges so maybe it's just me.
I hear playing OOP with large SPR's when our opponent has a wide & unpredictable range sucks pretty bad. Sure our 3-betting range should be polarized, but I think the top end of that polarized range can still have AQ in it.

I'll usually fold to most 4-bets, but stats, reads, leverage, gameflow, whuteva and all that could lead me to stack off.

But at 5NL, I'd expect a TAG like this to call too wide. He's certainly calling AJ/KQ stuff. There's just no way an 18/18 tag actually plays like the TAGs you'd encounter at higher limits. So yeah, I think the PStove ranges you provided are way too narrow in this instance.
 
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baudib1

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Here are a few select hands from the past month, all at NL25, where I 3-bet a CO or BTN opener


$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($33.55)
UTG+1 ($28.84)
CO ($33.48)
BTN ($25.25)
SB ($32.52)
Hero (BB) ($30.39)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB :2d4: :ad4:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.85, 2 folds, Hero raises to $2.50, CO calls $1.65

Flop: :3d4: :jd4: :8c4: ($5.10, 2 players)
Hero bets $2.25, CO calls $2.25

Turn: :4d4: ($9.60, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO raises to $21.60, Hero goes all-in $25.64, CO calls $4.04

River: :2s4: ($60.88, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $60.88
CO shows
:9h4: :th:
Hero shows
:2d4: :ad4:

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($28.04)
UTG+1 ($52.12)
CO ($13.88)
BTN ($30.29)
SB ($23.10)
Hero (BB) ($25)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB :qd4: :ac4:
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, BTN raises to $1.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3.25, CO folds, BTN calls $2.15

Flop: :ad4: :5h4: :8d4: ($6.85, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.90, Hero goes all-in $21.75, BTN calls $17.85

Turn: :3s4: ($50.35, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: :5c4: ($50.35, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $50.35
Hero shows
:qd4: :ac4:
BTN shows
:3d4: :4d4:

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($32.06)
CO ($24.61)
BTN ($23.05)
Hero (SB) ($25)
BB ($43.41)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is SB :kh4: :qd4:
1 fold, CO raises to $0.85, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.90

Flop: :2d4: :kd4: :qc4: ($5.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.25, CO raises to $11.88, Hero goes all-in $22.25, CO calls $9.98

Turn: :3c4: ($49.86, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: :tc: ($49.86, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $49.86
CO shows
:9d4: :8d4:
Hero shows
:kh4: :qd4:

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($25)
CO ($15.03)
BTN ($44.83)
SB ($8.85)
Hero (BB) ($27.39)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BB :ah4: :qc4:
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.75, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.25, BTN calls $1.50

Flop: :js4: :qh4: :ad4: ($4.60, 2 players)
Hero bets $3.25, BTN raises to $6.50, Hero goes all-in $25.14, BTN calls $18.64

Turn: :qd4: ($54.88, 2 players, 1 all-in)

River: :as4: ($54.88, 2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $54.88
BTN shows
:kd4: :ts:
Hero shows
:ah4: :qc4:

$0.10/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
5 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($81.56)
CO ($21.57)
BTN ($12.45)
SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($27.42)

Pre-Flop: ($0.35, 5 players) Hero is BB K:club: K:heart:
2 folds, BTN raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2, BTN calls $1.50

Flop: 6:diamond: J:spade: 8:diamond: ($4.10, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.25, Hero raises to $4.85, BTN calls $4.60

Turn: J:diamond: ($13.80, 2 players)
Hero bets $13.80, BTN calls $5.60

River: 7:heart: ($33.20, 2 players)

Final Pot: $33.20
Hero shows
K:club: K:heart:
BTN shows
10:heart: Q:spade:
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Fair enough. Maybe it's a 6-max vs FR thing more than a stakes thing but I just don't get too many opponents flatting 3bets with worse.
 
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